Liberating them against their will.

[tw]

Originally posted by dave
Many people in Iraq <b>are</b> gracious.

Exactly what the war mongers were saying in 1965. Exact quote if we change Iraq to VietNam! Are we doomed to repeat the lessons of history? We were so sure that they loved us because we were giving them free speech and no dictator. And they kept saying in the streets, "Joe number one".

What were we suppose to have learned from VietNam? That what you think they want is not what they want. In VietNam, they told us repeatedly how they loved having the Americans there. Then when they got together in secret, they said dfiferently what they really wanted.

That reality was expressed in one of those VietNam movies - Platoon or Full Metal Jacket - a scene in the bathhouse that apparently was totally lost on Dave.

They don't want free speech or no Saddam. That was secondary. They want the electricity to work, bombings to not happen, and jobs. Unemplyment is still rampant - unlike the days of Saddam. Take away the rhetoric of Iraqi dissidents, and you have a completely different 'want' from those people. Stop trying to put an American bias on what they want.

Saddam was not 'that' bad for most Iraqis. They did not like him, but they really would not risk anything to remove him - because they did not hate Saddam 'that' much. Saddam was bad, but not that bad as George Jr would have us believe.

Dave needs to get that bias out of his thinking to understand the volatility of Iraq. He is using an American perspective. Wrong. To understand what they want, he must use an Iraqi perspective. Currently Dave is thinking as the ill-informed were thinking in 1965. I know. I was one of those who believe those lies - mostly because we could not get an honest story. Dave should have an advantage - the lessons of VietNam. And yet Dave is rationalizing just as America's domestic enemies rationalized all through the Johnson and Nixon administrations.

People did not miss free speech in Iraq. But they now miss the security, jobs, and government services that were provided by Saddam. Free speech and freedom is not number one on their lists. A smiling American soldier does not mean all is OK. Things could go either way. And that is what reporters in-country are reporting - as some were reporting in mid 1960 VietNam.

Back then, many called the NY Times a communist newspaper because it was but the few who actually reported accurately about VietNam. Today, read the details - which means readers of the Daily News or Fox News will not get sufficient information. Those details are really where the actual mindset in Iraq is found.

[Undertoad]

"Not that bad"

Imagine what tw must be paying attention to, and how much he must be filtering out, to come out with a statement like that.

Now consider the rest of his statements with that filter on.

What was the title of your post, tw? "Killing their electricity against their will?" Uh, no. It was liberation. So I talk liberation, and you go, "that's not it. Their electricity doesn't work." Okay.

I'm not going to bother, because you're just going to change whatever we're talking about so you can pretend to make me look like a tool. Yeah, whatever. Let's stick to electronics.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by dave
Many people in Iraq <b>are</b> gracious. Our own Tobiasly served in Iraq this year, and is now (thankfully) (mostly) safe in Kuwait. He can tell you about their gratitude first-hand.

I guess I didn't tell you guys.. my battalion is being sent back north into Iraq. We will be about 50 km south of Baghdad, not quite the fiercest part of the fight, but not quite as safe as Tallil either.

No internet either, so you prolly won't hear from me for a while. I'll try to take some more first-hand pictures for everyone.

We'll be up there until early January. We were supposed to be coming home in mid-November, but now they're keeping pretty much all Guard and Reserve units 365 days in theater, as opposed to 365 days total mobilization. Luckily it only took us a month to mobilize, and we were fairly close to home; some units took 4 or 6 months to mob, and they were halfway across the country.

Our only hope is that the administrative people who issue the extension orders will not get ours put out in time, in which case we will come home in mid-Nov. as originally planned!

As far as the person on the street in Iraq, there are all kinds. Some will indeed approach you, shake your hand, and thank you; others will give you cold stares as you drive by. But for the most part, people want to raise their family and be left alone. Usually they understand if we come in and search their homes, it is for everyone's benefit. The little things we do to help -- give their sick child medical care, give water and MREs to a hungry bedouin -- go a long way to increasing goodwill.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Michael Roth
I do not have a better solution, luckily I don't need to offer one. I'm a graphic designer, not a political analyst or military consultant.

I disagree with that. If you complain about the situation, but don't offer a better solution, you are just increasing the noise level.

However it does not take a rocket scientist to tell which way the wind is blowing.

Of course they know which way the wind is blowing. Things are getting worse, and they are trying to fix it. Simply pulling everyone out because people are dying and families miss the soldiers is not the answer. I'd rather stay here a little longer and help be part of the solution instead of pulling everyone out, creating a power vacuum to let the next mass-murdering fundamentalist zealot take over.

[Whit]

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tob, stay as safe as possible dude. Hope to hear from you soon.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by tw
Saddam was not 'that' bad for most Iraqis. They did not like him, but they really would not risk anything to remove him - because they did not hate Saddam 'that' much. Saddam was bad, but not that bad as George Jr would have us believe....

People did not miss free speech in Iraq. But they now miss the security, jobs, and government services that were provided by Saddam.

I bet this is the argument a lot of people who were against abolishing slavery must have made. "A lot of masters are nice to their slaves. They give them a place to live, food and water... sure, a few masters beat, rape, torture and kill their negroes, but so what? Most of them are just fine. Slaves don't want to be free; they just want the security that a good master gives them."

[Undertoad]

Tobe, you are SO the man, it just isn't funny any more.

I'm sick of the talking heads trying to spin it all when you're the one out there trying to make the world a better place. I'm sick of the talking heads trying to spin you without even bothering to ask your opinion.

I was reading recently about all the post-war troubles in Germany in 1946, and don't you know, things were actually worse there and then, and some people wanted to just walk away. We stayed instead, and made the world a better place. Only then was it safe to return to the isolation America always wants to enjoy.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Whit
Tob, stay as safe as possible dude. Hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks, I appreciate it. We'll still be here for another week or so.

My biggest hero in all of this is my wife. We were married for 4 months before I left, and now we'll be apart for 12. Yet she still supports me in all of this, and as difficult as it is to be apart for the holidays, she will carry on. All while being a full-time student, doing her nursing job, and taking care of a house for the first time in her life.

A lot of soldiers' wives give them ultimatums.. "choose me or the military". But I know Elizabeth would never do that, as much as she would like to. I almost wish she would, because it would make my choice of whether to stay in after I get back much easier.

Anyhoo, not trying to hijack the thread (big loss, I know), I'd just like to share that.

[tw]

Originally posted by Tobiasly
I bet this is the argument a lot of people who were against abolishing slavery must have made. "A lot of masters are nice to their slaves. They give them a place to live, food and water...

Slaves, for the most part, wanted their freedom. They did not want their freedom because northerners assumed they must want freedom. Iraqis, for the most part, did not want to be invaded by Americans. But Dave says they wanted to be liberated only because he assumes they 'must' want to be liberated. Dave's bias proves nothing. Which is why the 'slave argument' is irrelevant.

If Iraqis so hated Saddam, then where were the millions celebrating liberation in the streets? If Iraqis so hated Saddam, then Saddam could not hide in Iraq. Those are facts not from Dave's biases. Outside of some holligans, there was little celebration because Iraqis were not ready to be liberated. Dave assumed they wanted Saddam out only because he rationalizes they 'must' want Saddam out and they 'must' want freedom of speech.
.

Bottom line is that Iraqis more want what they once had under Saddam. Security, jobs, and basic services are more important to Iraqis than freedom of speech and no Saddam in their text books. And what did we not provide? Electricty for up to 6 months. Jobs for unemployed army troops - who could have been providing the security and restoring basic services. And security. As far as Iraqis are concerned, each bombing is just another reason to blame Americans.

Tonight on PBS Newshour, what does every Iraqi say they want? Number one want in Iraq is "Security". What did America not provide for half a year in Iraq? Security. Too few troops. No plans. Then we made it even worse by disbanning all soldiers and police. Now Iraqis are suffering from something that they never knew - *kidnappings*. One family has lost both kids for a second time in three months! Kidnapping never happened in Iraq until the Americans liberated crime! It does not matter what Dave thinks. This is want Iraqis see. They don't like what America has forced on them.

How many major crime cops are in Baghdad? 42. Only forty two for a city the size of LA; swamped in major crime. Even worse, they can't recruit more cops. Only recently were they able to recruit most of the cops they have. Iraqis did not trust Americans who did not even provide security. Reporters from all news services are reporting same. Even kidnapping is all but legal because there is no law enforcement - thanks to Americans.

One American checkpoint recently found a car containing kidnapped kids and returned them home. That family that lost their kids again - the kids escaped their kidnappers the first time. No law enforcement provided assistance.

More than freedom to speak - they want security and jobs. They first want what Saddam provided them. That means a volatile, simmering pot. Many more guard and reserves will be called up and sent to Iraq. It is why Tobiasly cannot come home. We have the mess that a year long State Dept study predicted.

Tobiasly is going right where Iraq could change. If that Shite region of Najaf and Karabala were to follow what Shite religious leaders are calling for, then that region also could get hot. Currently the region south of Baghdad has been extremely tranquile and calm. Should that change, then America has serious trouble in Iraq.

Hope the best for Tobiasly. He is probably going where the future of Iraq may be decided. He may know long before any of us which way the winds will bow. Should the Shities rise up like the Sunnis are starting, then it will be bad news for Tobiasly - and us.

$40,000 per Iraqi to liberate people who did not want to be liberated. It is why Saddam cannot be found. A nation must be long beyond wanting to be liberated before it is safe to liberate. Did we not learn from Somolia?

[tw]

Tobiasly - keep your eyes open. If correct, you may be deployed quite close to the famous and historic city of Babylon. Once the capital of the Mesopotamian Empire.

[Undertoad]

tw, you really must see some of this "torture tape" video to see the regime you're defending.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/30/in...partner=GOOGLE

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by tw
If Iraqis so hated Saddam, then where were the millions celebrating liberation in the streets? If Iraqis so hated Saddam, then Saddam could not hide in Iraq.

They don't celebrate in the streets because they fear he could return to power and torture them and their families, and basically take everything from them.

They don't yet trust that Americans have their best interests in mind, or that this democracy thing will take hold. Of course, these are valid concerns, especially since we stopped short last time. I pray we don't make that same mistake twice, and it seems GWB has no intention of doing so. I'm very thankful for that.

Bottom line is that Iraqis more want what they once had under Saddam. Security, jobs, and basic services are more important to Iraqis than freedom of speech and no Saddam in their text books.

You sure seem to know a lot about what Iraqis want. Where exactly do you get this information?

Tobiasly - keep your eyes open. If correct, you may be deployed quite close to the famous and historic city of Babylon. Once the capital of the Mesopotamian Empire.

I will be a little east of Karbala, but I don't know how that corresponds to exactly where Babylon was. I am hoping to see some interesting sights and take some pictures if I get the chance.

There was a rather large ziggurat pretty close to us when I was at Tallil Airfield (near Nasiriyah); unfortunately they closed the road to it shortly after I arrived.

[tw]

Originally posted by Tobiasly
I will be a little east of Karbala, but I don't know how that corresponds to exactly where Babylon was. I am hoping to see some interesting sights and take some pictures if I get the chance.

East of Karbala would be the province of Babil and probably on the banks of the Eurphrates River. Maybe in An Hindiyah? I vaguely recall some serious bridge combat in that town maybe involving the 7th Cav. Somewhere in that area is a major pipeline that feed the Persian Gulf. Babylon would be due south maybe 10 to 20 klicks near a town now called An Hillah.

Another interesting local geography would be what was called the Karbala gap - west of Karbala. Apparently a wonderfully executed manuever by the 3rd ID between Karbala and a large lake. Even today, details remain sketchy. How the terrain contributed to the plan would be interesting. This was the manuever that broke the Iraqi's last line of defense with virtually no American losses.

[elSicomoro]

Meanwhile he completely glided past Tob's question...smooth.