Major Concession

[elSicomoro]

Actually, I think it would be pretty fucking funny if we just upped and left. I've been thinking about that one a lot lately.

"Well, they wanted us to go, so off we went..."

And just left it as is. I mean, we'd save a ton of cash. And the Shi'a could set up a religious theocracy and become like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

But then, the Kurds and Sunnis would probably get the beat down. Then they'd ask for help...then the cycle would start all over again...

[tw]

Originally posted by sycamore
Actually, I think it would be pretty fucking funny if we just upped and left. I've been thinking about that one a lot lately.

You would then get strong opposition from one who was against this whole boondoogle from the very beginning - me. I opposed it, in part, because there was no turning back. We are now stuck there because this administration had no exit strategy and repeatedly ignored warnings from those who knew better. This administration had their rhetoric and that was all they needed to hear. Only those who agreed with the rhetoric were heard. UN opposition was because we were wrong to invade Iraq and now must pay the price. We cannot leave.

I even heard a comment from an administration that sounded just like the famous expresson - "light at the end of the tunnel".

Today, a Civil Engineering organization reports that infrastructure programs have all but come to a standstill. We should start seeing the associated problems starting in about four years. Too much money on defense of missile that don't exist using technology that does not work. Too much money trying to police the world. We have returned to problems that were characteristic of Vietnam. Plenty of money for the military - debt everywhere else. That is why a president is suppose to see more than just fear and enemies everywhere.

We got the president that right wing extremists love - beause they too see hate and fear everywhere. Now we are stuck.

[Undertoad]

I dunno, but here's where the CIA says the tape is Saddam saying it wasn't him hitting Mohammed Baqer al-Hakim, and they've also worked out that this hit and the UN hit were both done with the same types of munitions. And that the UN hit directly targetted Sergio Vieira de Mello, which if it is the case, may or may not be payback for his role in East Timor, which increases the probability that al Queda is involved.

It probably is that the "real"/"best" reason to go to Iraq was because the US looked at the chessboard* of the middle east and said, boy, it looks like we could be facing a perfect storm of the combination of islamic militantism and nuclear proliferation, and the quickest way to solve that problem is to create a US-friendly government smack dab in the middle of it.

(Credit them, I guess, for not just doing it the easy/old way and assassinating Hussein and installing their own puppet.)

And it could be that the money guys in the rest of the region realized that TOO, that a US-friendly Iraq meant their own golden goose was gonna cook soon, and saw the only way for them to maintain the Saudi status quo would be to try to get the US operation to fail.

And so the strategic bombing of the pipeline, and the waterline, and the mosque, all in an attempt to enflame the people and slow down the improvements and make the US lose its nerve. And perhaps the UN too, to make the UN lose its nerve.

Now IF all that is the case, the very worst thing to do under any circumstances would be to punt. In fact, that would be so strategically insane -- to create a continuing FAILED state in the middle of the middle east would be catastrophic.

Now France and Germany have again voted to say that they prefer the status quo. They like the current assholes in charge in Saudi Arabia. They prefer if Iraq becomes a failed state. Or at least they seem to, with their first chess move today. Notice that no number of Iraqis in pain outweighs the politics of the UN or Chiraq's hope that he can get a better deal out of stalling and negotiating.

*credit Bill Maher for this analogy

[tw]

Originally posted by Griff
tw nailed it exactly... until he got to his conclusion. The addition of more troops does little to protect soft infrastructure targets. We can't assign a trooper to every person in Iraq.

We don't need more guards. We have the wrong people there. Last group we should have in country are two heavy armour divisions. They are not trained. They don't have the right equipment. But right wing rhetoric says they have what they need - they just don't know it yet.

How bad was the administration's plan to end this war? What plan? Why could Saddam restore electricity and other civil services in a month? We can't even restore electricity four months later - and now make silly excuses. What does armour know about infrastructure? Nothing. This administration had no exit strategy nor even a plan how to restore the country. Classic MBA management technique.

But it gets worse. From Washington comes a silly mandate that all Baath party members are to be banned from working. Even Patton confronted that silliness when he was told not to use Nazis. You wanted a job? Then you had sign silly papers and be a Nazi or Baath party member. Do we want the country back in order? Yes. Then Baath party members need be hired. But not according to George Jr and his man Bremer. They are evil. They signed those papers!

Again the NY Times article on how the 101st is getting problems solved. They let Baath party members start teaching again - because all teachers had to be Baath party members regardless of their political mindset.

Same stupidity about disbanning the Iraqi army. No civil authority because those who could have helped restore order were banned. Political rhetoric instead of the intelligence of pragmatism - classic right wing thinking. We created the anarchy by creating a power vacuum. No plans to set up a civilian government. No one to maintain order. No one who knew how to even restore electricity. Then suddenly emergeny contracts with unlimited money to Halliburton et al to come fix the poblems. Then a shortage of US troops AND without proper equipment or translators. What a mess directly traceable to the MBA in the White House.

We don't need more guards. We needed more of everything else including intelligent leaders AND no more rhetoric from Washington.

The NY Times article is quite revealing about why the rest of Iraq is going chaotic. UT need not read it since it will dispute his preconceived notions - just another article from an anti-American newspaper:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/in...al/04NORT.html

Don't forget what George Jr told us. This Iraq war would be paid for by Iraqi oil. So where is that $1billion in oil revenue. And where is the other $499 billion per year coming from? George Jr caught in another lie. The right wing will again forgive him for lying. That is the Christian way.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by tw
You would then get strong opposition from one who was against this whole boondoogle from the very beginning - me.

And the last thing I want is you being against me.

I don't think we should pull out at all...then we'd be even bigger assholes than we already are. We made the mess, we have to clean it up--be it on our own, with UN help, whatever.

[tw]

Originally posted by sycamore
I don't think we should pull out at all...then we'd be even bigger assholes than we already are. We made the mess, we have to clean it up--be it on our own, with UN help, whatever.

Said better and with less words. We made it. Mom says we have to clean it up.

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
And that the UN hit directly targetted Sergio Vieira de Mello, which if it is the case, may or may not be payback for his role in East Timor, which increases the probability that al Queda is involved.

Which is sighted more often - al Queda or Elvis?

When do we finally concede that al Queda is not hiding under every bed? Oh. Right wing extremist see enemies everywhere?

[elSicomoro]

I saw that article, UT. And while I don't doubt that it could be Uncle Saddam on that tape, we don't know whether his folks are even listening to him anymore...they could very well be acting on their own.

Originally posted by Undertoad
And that the UN hit directly targetted Sergio Vieira de Mello, which if it is the case, may or may not be payback for his role in East Timor, which increases the probability that al Queda is involved.

Very interesting connection that I hadn't thought about. If we look at it from that viewpoint though, it could also be Filipino militants pissed off at us for putting Marcos up for his final days.

After seeing France's reaction to the Lockerbie settlement, I am convinced that the French merely want a piece of the pie. Not necessarily bad...who doesn't like making money? But if they really are of that viewpoint, just fucking admit it already.

This settles it...I'm going to the library this weekend to read some books about French culture and politics. I just don't get them sometimes, and maybe it's just because I am ignorant of who they really are.

[Griff]

Originally posted by tw

Said better and with less words. We made it. Mom says we have to clean it up.

She's your Mom not mine. Sorry, I'm not taking responsibility for what statists do. We've run this excuse out time and time again for interventionist policies. I've backed it in the past but no more. I'm not participating in any more collective guilt games.

[Undertoad]

Originally posted by tw
Which is sighted more often - al Queda or Elvis?

When do we finally concede that al Queda is not hiding under every bed? Oh. Right wing extremist see enemies everywhere?

This editorial from yesterday explains how one of bin Ladin's closest associates sees secular democracy in Iraq as the major threat to the Islamic world.

Wise up.

[tw]

Now this president has no idea why he gets such a cool reception from other world nations. Money to an MBA is something you throw everywhere to solve problems:

from NY Times of 5 Sept 2003
This week, international experts enlisted by the American-led occupation authorities estimated that the loss of oil revenues and cost of operating a civilian government in Iraq is projected at $20 billion for 2004.

That figure was given to diplomats from potential donor nations in Brussels this week, and by all accounts they were stunned.

"Think of it this way," said an official familiar with the Brussels session. "You'd be putting more than a third of the world's development assistance in 2004 into a country with the second largest oil reserves in the world. Imagine what that does to the rest of the poor countries in the world. All of Africa doesn't get that much money."

Classic MBA. Money means nothing to him especially when it is someone elses money. No wonder he ran a surplus into the biggest debt this nation has ever seen in but his first two years. And then he does not understand why other nations so distrust him? They love America. They don't trust George Jr. Just another in the long list of reasons why.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Griff
She's your Mom not mine. Sorry, I'm not taking responsibility for what statists do. We've run this excuse out time and time again for interventionist policies. I've backed it in the past but no more. I'm not participating in any more collective guilt games.

Ah-hahahaha! What a funny man!

You know better than that Griff...unless you move to Canada or one of the US territories, you're fucked just like the rest of us.

[Griff]

*sigh*

Allow me my little fantasies, won't yah?

[elSicomoro]

I understand Griff...I'm pondering a move to PR myself.

[warch]

France wants deals for its own weasels, they dont want to pay Halliburton. What a mess.