Iran

[Luce]

Originally Posted by sexobon

They're expansionists, they were going to do that anyway.

They're more or less us with a little less spit & polish.

And a different flavor of weird fundamentalist religion.

[monster]

I say we just hand Trump over. I'm sure he won't mind taking one for the team....

[sexobon]

I see you've been reading Tehran Rose.

She doesn't appreciate President Dalek J. Trump.

[Diaphone Jim]

Trump and Pompeo are clueless.
They just want all those Afghans in Afghanistan, Iranians in Iran and Iraqis in Iraq to give up and go home so we can have our way.

Baghdad Intl Airport has been La Guardia East for almost 20 years. We let the General came and go, then decided to assassinate him and all around him in an ambush. Wrong and stupid.

[sexobon]

Lucky Strike, no strike back!

There, we're covered.

[Undertoad]

sexobon age reference noted

[Undertoad]

just to be clear, I never mean that to be in the spirit of "OK boomer"

[sexobon]

I still get a kick out of it, like Conan's In the Year 2000.

[Luce]

Turns out the reason Iraq is so damned angry, is that dude had been invited there to discuss a de-escalation proposal proposed by the Saudis, who then handed the itinerary over to us.

So, it was basically a Sopranos-style mob hit.

[Griff]

While this would be completely in character for Commander Bonespur can we get a link?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Luce

Turns out the reason Iraq is so damned angry, is that dude had been invited there to discuss a de-escalation proposal proposed by the Saudis, ...

Soleimani was just the man that an informed America would have been engaging, recruiting, and enlisting in America's Middle East strategies. He has long been a moderate, pragmatic, and an extraordinary talented solver of problems. His strategies were, as commander of Iranian, Syrians, and Iraqi forces, legendary. Unlike so many extremists, he was an earliest and strong supporter of Kurds. But moreso, he had on many occasions approached US diplomats with solutions to ease and diminish the American/Iranian conflicts.

Most noteworthy was his rabid American support and advise on how to take out the Taliban after 11 September. Only (as so many ignorant Americans have done) to be undermined by a mental midget president's "Axis of Evil" speech. Which all but declared war on a nation that so desperately wanted to help America take out the Taliban.

Soleimani was highly respected in most every Arab nation. He could both unite people and lead them in a manner that few others could. He even was a strong and open supporter of respect for democracy and street supporters who demanded their freedoms from Iranian religious clerics. He clearly was a moderate. He should have been target #1 for American diplomats to recruit as a powerful ally.

But we have a president whose penis makes kneejerk decisions. Since he can openly murder someone on Fifth Ave and still get elected. That points to the source of our problems.

America simply created what is to Iran their 11 September. We can expect and probably deserve resulting violent attacks. Respect for America in the Middle East has clearly and severely been diminished. We will suffer due to the idiot's ego.

How stupid? Trump officials said we had averted attacks on America and have made Americans safer. A brainwashed extremist would believe that. Meanwhile these same extremists have told all Americans to get out as fast as possible - even on ground transportation if necessary. Because it was never more dangerous. What did they do? When only preaching to extremists supporters, then those obvious contradictions get ignored.

Clearly an egotist president never once considered long term adversarial effects he will create. He has again presented Putin with more victories in the region. And worse, both his actions and words say he only wants war. He has done everything he can to praise entrenched despots. While constantly demeaning and debasing democracies and America's closest allies.

As a nation, we can expect and probably deserve what will result. We can even expect Iraq to throw us out. Since they must now choose between Iran and America. And apparently have done so.

Expect Pakistan to hold US forces hostage for even more expensive concessions because The Donald has now harmed America's relationships with every relevant nation in that region.

He openly endorsed ethnic cleansing of the Kurds. He has turned public opinion of America in that Nato nation from moderately popular to complete contempt. Even Lebanon is becoming a disaster that may now easily turn against America. Russia has completely replaced America as the region's power broker. How many more surrenders, diplomatic suicides, and political disasters have been created by so many American voters were so dumb as to vote for this idiot.

Murder of a senior government official is never war on terrorism. That is Trump lying again - as usual. That murder was an outright attack on another nation. Those who remember the so many lessons from history remember Archduke Franz Ferdinand. No honest or decent nation unilaterally murders government officials from another nation. Since that means war. And wacko extremists love war.

World nations are becoming more friendly with American adversaries only because of this and other dumb, big penis inspired mistakes. Even the Kurds have learned the hard way (and now again) that America is no longer a trusted ally.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by tw

Unlike so many extremists, he was an earliest and strong supporter of Kurds.

Early supporter, then apparently he decided they were no longer of use and killed a bunch of them and took over Kirkuk...?

We can even expect Iraq to throw us out. Since they must now choose between Iran and America. And apparently have done so.

Bush destroyed the Sunni government of 90% Iraq and worked with the nation to replace it with a representative government. Because it is representative, it is majority Shiite. The calculation was that they would be happy it was representative, and thank us for the favor. That government has apparently decided to sit with Shia Iran. This was sort of predictable, so the fault really goes back to W.

He openly endorsed ethnic cleansing of the Kurds.

Well they're... not dead yet.

Even the Kurds have learned the hard way (and now again) that America is no longer a trusted ally.

It's true we can't be trusted, but first sign of trouble they will be giving us a call. We're #1 on their speed dial.

You can't really have it both ways. Either you get out of the region and accept the fact that some populations will be at risk, or you stay in and run endless war.

[Luce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The calculation was that they would be happy it was representative, and thank us for the favor.

Another expectation was that our army would be met by grateful, American flag-waving Iraqis, back in the day.

In neither case was the expectation reasonable. Nor did either one work out the way we had convinced ourselves they would.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Luce

Another expectation was that our army would be met by grateful, American flag-waving Iraqis, back in the day.

That was quite possible and, at first, did happen. Concepts of war were well defined 2000 years before Columbus. Due to the intelligence level of senior American officials, we violated those rules - repeatedly.

In the movie "Patton", he says that if phones, electricity, wat3er, schools, etc are not restored in Germany in 6 months, then America would be defeated in Germany. Yes, that well understood that long ago.

So what did America do in Iraq? First indication of mental midgets making decisions was apparent on your TV within days after Baghdad fell. Looters stealing artifacts from the museum with American soldiers simply standing there watching. (And some here even denying it.) Soldiers had no "After action orders". So they could do nothing. All hell started. A major violation implemented back in Washington by the uneducated (extremists).

They sent Paul Bremer. He issued two orders - CPA 1 and 2. First all educated people (doctors, engineers, government administrators, teachers) must be fired for being a member of the Bath party. Second, he disbanded the army. Both examples of stupidity. Both example of decisions made only from emotions. To this day, Bremer denies what he stupidity created.

What happened is what is suppose to happen. Iraq's best educated people had no jobs and no income. So of course they attacked their enemy - Americans. By month seven, a five mile road from Baghdad to the airport was so dangerous that no American could drive on it. Americans simply did what was obviously dumb even over 2000 years ago.

It was so dangerous that even Bremer had to sneak out of Baghdad to go home.

America so messed things up that Iraq, could not even produce the amount of electricity that was routine during Saddam's time. Even with big new GE generators.

Why did both Japan and Germany becomes some of America's greatest allies? We did not obstruct those nations from rebuilding themselves. We both encouraged and assisted, where ever possible, those nation's restoration. In short, we did "nation building". Only wackos in Washington never understood why that is necessary or how to do it.

Why do wackos still not understand it. It cannot be explained in a tweet. Reality is more difficult. It must include the reasons (and history) why.

It is called Phase Four planning. The most critical part of a military victory occurs in six months after a surrender. Ask about. Notice so many peers who do not know that. Who did not learn the lessons of history. Under Cheney, we converted Iraqis from the gracious liberated into angry civil warriors.

A disaster in Tikrit is simply one example of what happens when leaders are dumb, emotional, and uneducated. 5000 America servicemen killed uselessly because people in Washington were mental midgets.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Early supporter, then apparently he decided they were no longer of use and killed a bunch of them and took over Kirkuk...?

You are confusing Tirkit with Kirkuk. Soleimani was instrumental in the liberation for Tirkit from Dash after Iraqi army leadership (incompetence) failed to do so.