10/01/02: Religion is a bunch of fucking bunk.

[jaguar]

I think jsut to counter some of the perceptions ill give a quick profile of one of my Christian friends.

He's 23, a lawyer by profession. Topped his class in school, went straight into the more perstigious uni's doing arts/law. Was headhunted straight out of uni into a ~US$80,000 a year job which he quit 3 years later becasue of the hours etc to do social work. He's extremely articulate, one of the smartest people i know and doesn't even try to convert people. They're not all bad.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by juju
I thought your argument for the existence of God was based on perfection and immense complexity? Or is it just immense complexity that convinces you of the existence of God? You don't think immensely complex systems can arise through chance?

I wasn't really trying to argue for the existence of God; just explain how my beliefs are rooted in more than just blind faith. And again, my point is that the following statements can all be true:

• God exists
• God is perfect
• God created humans
• Humans are imperfect

There is nothing mutually exclusive about these statements. Humans being flawed and imperfect has nothing to do with whether God is all-powerful and perfect. I'm not trying to debate whether He is, just that using man's imperfections as evidence doesn't make sense.

Naw, the kind of person that would get offended by that would never take a class on Human Evolution.

Yeah, I suppose you've got a pretty good point there!

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by jaguar
I thought we were created in god's image?

We were. He just intentionally used a lossy algorithm when copying His image. So our imperfections are nothing more than JPEG artifacting. :)

[Cam]

Part of the problem is that most people associate Religion with Faith. They are to totaly seperate things, at least I thinks so. Religion is what tells people that they should go to church on Sunday, that you need to go to confession to be absolved of your sins, kneel to pray, and genuflect before entering a pew. Most of these things are not expressly stated in the bible as necessary.

Faith on the other hand is just the genuine belief in God. It is a personal thing and is different from person to person. And how you practice your faith is totally up to you. Relgion is just a guide created by other people.
Of course someone cannot be Religious without some faith, this isn't true the other way, someone can have faith without being religious.

The majority of people in America belong to the Christian faith. Most of these people follow different form of Religion that believe in this faith such as Catholic, Presbeterian, and Protestant religions. Sadly in some parts of the country, especially in close knit communities, people look at religion as a sign that someone is faithful, when truely these are two different things.

[jaguar]

Part of the problem is that most people associate Religion with Faith. They are to totaly seperate things, at least I thinks so. Religion is what tells people that they should go to church on Sunday, that you need to go to confession to be absolved of your sins, kneel to pray, and genuflect before entering a pew. Most of these things are not expressly stated in the bible as necessary.

No that organised religion. Religion doth not have to be organised.

Faith on the other hand is just the genuine belief in God. It is a personal thing and is different from person to person. And how you practice your faith is totally up to you. Relgion is just a guide created by other people.
Of course someone cannot be Religious without some faith, this isn't true the other way, someone can have faith without being religious.

You can have faith in anything, most people ahve a degree in faith in science - they beleive something they do not understand. Personally i have faith in people.

We were. He just intentionally used a lossy algorithm when copying His image. So our imperfections are nothing more than JPEG artifacting. :)

God needs to up the slider in photoshop. Gah, rather than argue this i'm going to put in a little essay by voltaire entitled Plato's dream.

In ancient times, dreams were much revered, and Plato was one of the greatest
dreamers. His dream The Republic is deservedly famous, but the following
little-known tale is perhaps his most amazing dream--or nightmare:
The great Demiurgos, the eternal geometer, having scattered throughout the
immensity of space innumerable worlds, decided to test the knowledge of those
lesser superbeings who were also his creations, and who had witnessed his works.
He gave them each a small portion of matter to arrange, just as our own art
teachers give their students a statue to carve, or a picture to paint, if we may
compare small things to great.
Demogorgon received the lump of mold we call Earth, and having formed it as it
now appears, thought he had created a masterpiece. He imagined he had silenced
Envy herself, and expected to receive the highest praise, even from his
brethren. How great was his surprise, when, at the presentation of his work,
they hissed in disappoval!
One among them, more sarcastic than the rest, spoke:
"Truly you have performed mighty feats! You have divided your world into two
parts; and, to prevent them from communicating with each other, placed a vast
collection of waters between the two hemispheres. The inhabitants must perish
with cold under both your poles, and be scorched to death under the equator. You
have, in your great prudence, formed immense deserts of sand, so all who travel
over them may die with hunger and thirst. I have no fault to find with your
cows, sheep, cocks, and hens; but can never be reconciled to your serpents and
spiders. Your onions and artichokes are very good things, but I cannot conceive
what induced you to scatter such a heap of poisonous plants over the face of the
planet, unless it was to poison its inhabitants. Moreover, if I am not mistaken,
you have created about 30 different kinds of monkeys, a still greater number of
dogs, yet only four or five races of humans. It is true, indeed, you have
bestowed on the latter of these animals a faculty you call Reason, but it is so
poorly executed that you might better call it Folly. Besides, you do not seem to
have shown any very great regard for this two-legged creature, seeing you have
left him with so few means of defense; subjected him to so many disorders, and
provided him with so few remedies; and formed him with such a multitude of
passions, and so little wisdom and prudence to resist them. You certainly were
not willing that there should remain any great number of these animals on Earth
at once; for, over the course of a given year, smallpox will regularly carry off
a tenth of the species, and sister maladies will taint the springs of life in
the remainder; and then, as if this was not enough, you have so disposed things
that half of those who survive are occupied in lawsuits, or cutting each other's
throats. Yes, they must be infinitely grateful to you, and I must admit that you
have executed a masterpiece."
Demogorgon blushed. He now realized there was much moral and physical evil in
his work, but still believed it contained more good than ill.
"It is easy to find fault," he said; "but do you imagine it is so easy to form
an animal, who, having the gift of reason and free will, shall not sometimes
abuse his liberty? Do you think that, in rearing 10,000 plants, it is so easy to
prevent some few from having noxious qualities? Do you suppose that, with a
certain quantity of water, sand, and mud, you could make a globe without sea or
desert?
"As for you, my sneering friend, I think you have just finished the planet
Jupiter. Let us see now what figure you make with your great belts, and your
long nights, with four moons to enlighten them. Let us examine your worlds, and
see whether the inhabitants you have made are exempt from folly and disease."
Accordingly, his fellow entities examined the planet Jupiter, and were soon
laughing at the laugher. He who had made Saturn did not escape without his share
of censure, and his fellows, the makers of Mars, Mercury, and Venus, was each in
his turn reproached.
They were in the midst of railing against and ridiculing each other, when the
eternal Demiurgos thus imposed silence on them all:
"In your performances there is both good and bad, because you have a great share
of understanding, but at the same time fall short of perfection. Your works will
endure for only a few billion years, after which you will acquire more knowledge
and perform much better. It belongs to me alone to create things perfect and
immortal."
"Us, for example?" asked Demogorgon.
Demiurgos scowled, and with that Plato awoke.
Or did he?

[Xugumad]

Tobiasly
He just intentionally used a lossy algorithm when copying His image. So our imperfections are nothing more than JPEG artifacting.

Oh, God is so sending you to hell now.

BTW, Faith != Religion. Believing in God has nothing to do with being part of any religious group.

Repeat after me: dogma is bad.

X.

I much like Dogma, thank you very much.

(I know, I know, this is way too much like a Nic Name post.)

[perth]

Repeat after me: dogma is bad.

no way. dogma is great. i especially like the part where matt damon whacks all those mooby execs.

one thing i have noticed recently is christians blatantly ignoring obvious scientific facts so they can be 'right'. i personally believe God exists, and his existence *can* be reconciled to science, without ignoring the facts. note i said reconciled, not proved.

things the scientific community 'knew' 100 years ago we know to be false today. in another 100 years will know certain things we know today to be false. its the way of things, we learn more everyday and sometimes newfound knowledge turns established knowledge on its ear. anyone claiming to have proof of God's nonexistence has proof of a holy crusade just as fucked up as the religious nutjobs noted in the previous paragraph.

the problem with Gods [non]existence is that given his/her nature, it cannot and will not ever be proven. all believers point to their own evidence, but it always boils down to faith. the evidence presented is to reconcile belief to a nonbeliever, but the faith is what matters.

someone once told me that humankind is a race that needs to have faith. regardless of what they believe in, everyone believes in something. those who do not worship any God or affiliate themselves with any religion have faith and take comfort in the lack a higher power. those arent quite the right words, but you get the idea.

~james

uh, that just kind of rambles on up there. sorry. there is a point in there somewhere.

[perth]

dammit dave, you stole my joke.

[Tobiasly]

Interesting essay.

Originally posted by jaguar
...as if this was not enough, you have so disposed things that half of those who survive are occupied in lawsuits

It's nice to know that some things don't change over thousands of years!

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Xugumad
Oh, God is so sending you to hell now.

Nah, I'm one of those who believes God has a sense of humor.

I mean, look at the platypus.

[perth]

Originally posted by Tobiasly

Nah, I'm one of those who believes God has a sense of humor.

I mean, look at the platypus.

i saw a religious tract once that used the platypus as proof that God exists. it talked about how evolution could not have created such a creature, blah blah blah, since we used the duckbilled platypus to prove evolution doesnt exist, and evolutionists claim God doesnt exist, therefore God exists. it was full of cirular reasoning and bizarre leaps of logic. this is the stupid crap im talking about.

~james

[Cam]

No that organised religion. Religion doth not have to be organised.

Actually I think it does have to be organized. In fact cults usually are a form of religion. They just don't practice their beliefs in a way society has deemed proper yet. Remember that the Catholic Church started out as little more than a cult .

You can have faith in anything, most people ahve a degree in faith in science - they beleive something they do not understand. Personally i have faith in people.

Of course I also believe you can have faith in science or anything else. All I was saying is that religion is just a bunch of people telling you how to show your faith in God.

I also think that any believer in God who doesn't believe in science isn't doing a good job using what God gave her/him. I think God created the world and made it evolve into what it is now to give us all something to do while we are here. Figuring out what happened.

[jaguar]

Actually I think it does have to be organized. In fact cults usually are a form of religion. They just don't practice their beliefs in a way society has deemed proper yet. Remember that the Catholic Church started out as little more than a cult .

You can be religious/beleive in god without following the dogma of an organisation or belonging to a community/organisation. I know some people that mesh various sets of beleifs together to form thier own sets, which they alone follow.

[Cam]

Originally posted by jaguar
You can be religious/beleive in god without following the dogma of an organisation or belonging to a community/organisation. I know some people that mesh various sets of beleifs together to form thier own sets, which they alone follow.

Which in reality is either just a faith or else your following a religion, your setting a standard that you must follow to consider yourself or other faithful. Faith is Faith, Religion is what tell people how to practice there faith.