Chief Illiniwek

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

It only takes one to make it an issue...

I would personally be more offended if everything thinks that I would be offended if someone made a mascot of a Native American when I could really care less.

I'm confused on two issues: Are you saying that you don't like Native Americans or just that you think the way I do and realize mascotting has no bearing on the heritage? Also, don't you mean you couldn't care less, because if you could care less it would mean that you care some and have room to care even less than you already do.

I am just a bit confused by the reply and was hoping for clarification. Thanks!

[WabUfvot5]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Actually, there are Irish people who are angry about that.

Further proving that the Irish are angry people

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by Jebediah

Further proving that the Irish are angry people

Those particular Irish are, anyway. LOL

But back to Chief Illiniwek...

Turns out the regalia he wore was that of a completely different tribe, Oglala Sioux. An Oglala chief had sold the clothing, including the eagle feather head dress, to the university 20 or so years ago, though not intending to clothe the mascot. Too bad the university decided to use it for that, instead of much-more needed educational purposes.

[piercehawkeye45]

Shawnee, you earlier said that you care less about the mascot (offensiveness wise) and you have some Native American heritage.

I would think it would be more insulting to me if everyone went out of their way to make sure I wasn't offended when I didn't have a strong postion on the argument.

[elSicomoro]

I'm part Native American. To me, the use of Native American symbols and nicknames is just...silly. And improper. I'm not all up in arms over it, but it just seems old and from another era. Retire them...come up with something creative.

Having said that, I don't see any issues with using the team name "Fighting Illini."

[xoxoxoBruce]

Any more silly and improper that using critters that have no concept of sports and games? At least the indians played games. If we're going to be all politically correct and shit, calling the team the Indians should have no connection to, or bearing on, the Native Americans.

[elSicomoro]

PC isn't always a bad thing. We don't call blacks "Negroes" or "Coloreds" anymore...at least, most of us don't.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Any more silly and improper that using critters that have no concept of sports and games? At least the indians played games. If we're going to be all politically correct and shit, calling the team the Indians should have no connection to, or bearing on, the Native Americans.

See, this is problem. These "Indian" mascots just perpetuate stereotypes, and keep the uninformed from moving past their antiquated views of actual Indians.

(Indians *still* play games, by the way--football, basketball, soccer, chess, etc. )

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by sycamore

PC isn't always a bad thing. We don't call blacks "Negroes" or "Coloreds" anymore...at least, most of us don't.

...and in another 50 years, calling someone "black" will be horribly offensive and there will be some brand new name we should be using. In the 60s, most black people preferred the term "Negro" and actually felt "black" was the offensive term. There are always new names for things, doesn't change the intent--or lack thereof--behind it.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

...and in another 50 years, calling someone "black" will be horribly offensive and there will be some brand new name we should be using.

Times change, people change. Native American mascots and names have come under increasing scrutiny over the past 20 or so years. While there may no be offense meant, the offense is still there. Would we call a team "Darkies" even if it had no racial connotation? I don't think so.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

See, this is problem. These "Indian" mascots just perpetuate stereotypes, and keep the uninformed from moving past their antiquated views of actual Indians.

(Indians *still* play games, by the way--football, basketball, soccer, chess, etc. )

I said the critters don't play sports. You know, critters, Bears, Lions, Eagles.

When was the last time you saw a real native American that looked anything like those sports mascots. When did they ever look like those sports mascots? There's no relation and anyone with half a brain knows that.

My Grandparents came from Scotland. I'd like a nickel for every time I've seen or heard a characterization of Scots. They weren't exactly flattering, either. Do I get my casino now?

[freshnesschronic]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

See, this is problem. These "Indian" mascots just perpetuate stereotypes, and keep the uninformed from moving past their antiquated views of actual Indians.

(Indians *still* play games, by the way--football, basketball, soccer, chess, etc. )

Gooood point.

[xoxoxoBruce]

What's a good point, they play games or it perpetuates stereotypes?

Did you ever stop to think the mascots promote a better stereotype than the general perception by the public?
Talking with local people I worked with, throughout the western part of the US, their perception leaned toward "drunken Ira Hayes".
I was really surprised because, being from the east, I hadn't been exposed to that attitude.
Of course in the east, Indians didn't enter the conversations very often, other than early history or sports(more recently casinos). That's not because they aren't here, it's because in the east, they have assimilated. In most cases you wouldn't know their background, they're just Americans.

[elSicomoro]

Bruce, there are pretty significant differences between animals and people. And huge--HUGE--differences between the ways Scots/Irish/Italians/etc. were treated when they came here and the near-elimination of Native Americans.

If there is a mascot that makes Native Americans look good, I'd love to see it.

My former college (Southeast Missouri State University) tried to put a positive spin on their old name--Indians/Otakhians (for the women). It was supposed to honor the Natives that lived in the area back in the day. Of course, they used stereotypical renderings of these mascots. They even had Chief Sagamore until the mid-80s. They did away with the names in 2004.

A good chunk of the Native American population on the East Coast was wiped out or moved westward during the settlement of the country. The ones that were left were smart to shut the fuck up and/or assimilate. Assimilation is a good thing--to a point.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Bruce

Any more silly and improper that using critters that have no concept of sports and games?

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

Indians *still* play games, by the way--football, basketball, soccer, chess, etc

Originally Posted by Bruce

I said the critters don't play sports. You know, critters, Bears, Lions, Eagles.

Originally Posted by Sycamore

Bruce, there are pretty significant differences between animals and people.

Well Duh. I asked what the hell do critters have to do with sports? Aren't the teams/mascot named after critters for the traits we respect. Do you think the Chicago Bears are named that because bears take good care of their cubs? Hardly..... it's the bear's ability to kick ass and take names. Does that mean the Mascot goes around kicking every ass? No, just opponents.

A lot of teams chose Indians out of respect for their abilities as warriors. Does that mean their mascot should go around fighting everyone? No, only opponents.

Originally Posted by Sycamore

If there is a mascot that makes Native Americans look good, I'd love to see it

Every one of them looks better than "drunken Ira Hayes". What do you want, noble red man sitting on his horse gazing over the plains below? Talk about perpetuating a stereotype, most of them never saw the plains.

Originally Posted by Sycamore

And huge--HUGE--differences between the ways Scots/Irish/Italians/etc. were treated when they came here and the near-elimination of Native Americans.

I'm not talking about how they were treated, but how they are portrayed. The Indians got there ass kicked when they tried to stop the settling of North America. Boo fucking hoo, get over it, unless you want a rematch. Stop being a professional victim. You've seen pictures of the reservations, they suck.
One of the guys I work with came from a reservation on the Mexican border, high school diploma because he wanted it, joined the Navy to get away, and never looked back. Nice house and family in the suburbs because he refused to be a victim. He hasn't forgotten his heritage, his tribal history, but he knows that was then and this is now.
They can't wander around hunting Buffalo and setting fire to the plains anymore. They can't live on roots, berries and venison in the Ozarks anymore. It's not going to happen, ever.... so get off your ass and get to work if you want more than you've got.