oh! youre a feminist? how cute! - Page 2

Aliantha · 12-19-2006, 08:33 PM

The feminist movement has been integral to many small victories for women across the world. Just keep in mind that until Greer (a woman whom I hold in fairly deep disdain) started burning bras etc, women had far fewer rights. I don't necessarily condone some of her actions or opinions, however, because I believe it takes the point of view from extremes in any discussion to enable us to find a middle ground, her actions and those of her cronies has helped women across the world.

Obviously the fight for women's rights began long before Greer's time. Probably the most important movement was when women lobbied successfully to be allowed a vote and therefore participation in the political process, and some sense of self determination over the course of their lives in conjunction with the country in which they live.

Do I consider myself a feminist? Nope. I like having gentlemen open doors for me and all those other nice things. I enjoy being a wife to my husband and taking care of the house and kids etc. At the same time though, I enjoy a large degree of autonomy within the household and in my country. As a woman, I believe this is because of the ardent feminists who have paved the way for a better future and greater rights for women world wide.

I don't think this is a detrimental thing for male and female equality. Women and men will always have roles that the majority of people find acceptable. The point of the womens movement is to cater for those of us, both male and female, who want to have the right to do things outside the normal sphere. Sure this causes discomfort for some neanderthals (both male and female) but in my very personal opinion, that's their own problem.

Shawnee123 · 12-20-2006, 07:45 AM

We've come a long way, baby.

Being an "I can do it myself" kind of person, I must concede that men are better at lifting heavy objects.

I think a man opening the door is just polite, and it's impolite to act as if it's a woman's right and not thank him. No different than how I make sure doors don't slam in the face of people who are behind me or other similar situations.

Modern chivalry is a good thing. Men should open doors and kill the bugs.

Shawnee123 · 12-20-2006, 08:56 AM

Spanky: Let's start a club right now. The He-man Woman-haters. I'll be president.
Alfalfa: And I'll be second president, and you can be third president.
Buckwheat: Thanks.
Spanky: Alright, get up and do exactly what I do. Put your hand on your heart, and raise your other hand. We, the He-man Woman-haters club...
Alfalfa and Buckwheat: We, the he-man woman-haters club...
Spanky: ...promise not to fall for this Valentine's business...
Alfalfa and Buckwheat: ...promise not to fall for this Valentine's business...
Spanky: ...because girls are the bunk.
Alfalfa and Buckwheat: ...because girls are the bunk.

DanaC · 12-20-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Do I consider myself a feminist? Nope. I like having gentlemen open doors for me and all those other nice things. I enjoy being a wife to my husband and taking care of the house and kids etc.

I do consider myself a feminist. I also like it when a man opens a door or pulls out a chair. I do not see chivalry and feminism as mutually exclusive. The opening of doors and the pulling out of chair is is not an indication that men have traditionally seen women as weak and frail and in need of looking after and protecting. The roots of that tradition are in courtly love, whereby a man would swear himself a servant to the woman, the object of his desire. The term for this type of behaviour was gentilesse.

DanaC · 12-20-2006, 05:17 PM

The problem with feminism.....as with any movement, is that it was and is made up of people. One person's feminism may not match another's. As with any movement, there was a particularly extreme wing, which also happened to be the most vocal and therefore defined the movement for those who observed from outside.

I am glad we had that extreme wing, shouting and marching, even though I disagree with many of their views. It was necessary; the quiet approach which had prevailed for most of history was taking an awfully long time to have any effect. I would not have the freedoms I now have, had they been quiet and conciliatory.

Another thing to bear in mind, when considering the main feminist movement, is the anger and frustration felt by many of the people involved. To be denied equality is an unpleasant thing. To be treated as less able, capable, worthwhile and important than another person merely because of an accident of birth is unpleasant. When people become angry and frustrated and sensitized to the unfairness that governs so much of their lives and range of opportunities; when someone discovers that their natural talents, desires, ambitions and proclivities, are not catered to by their proscribed place in society, and then track back a thousand years and find the roots of that unfairness spread through every part of their society and history, it can result in a rather extreme reaction.

Interestingly, many of the same accusations which were levelled at the feminists of the 70s were also levelled at the suffragettes who fought for the vote in Britain. They were accused of being man haters, lesbians, women who were unnatural in that they wanted to take male roles etc etc.Even now, at a political meeting recently, when a speaker read extracts from a book she'd written about some local suffragettes, there were people arguing that they had gone too far and should not have resorted to the tactics they used.

12-20-2006, 05:19 PM

Are women in Britain paid closer to men than they are in the US?

DanaC · 12-20-2006, 05:22 PM

Depends on the industry or sector. Many sectors have extreme disparity. Even with some industries getting a handle on it, there is a massive disparity in the kinds of jobs women do and men do, and the wages commanded by the jobs women do more of, are lower than those commanded by the jobs men tend to do.

Phil · 12-21-2006, 12:05 PM

i wonder how much of the suppression of women over the years is down to the catholic church?

DanaC · 12-21-2006, 12:25 PM

Some. But in fairness to the Catholic Church (and believe me that's not something you'll hear from me very often) they are far from unique in their approach to womens' roles.

Phil · 12-21-2006, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Some. But in fairness to the Catholic Church (and believe me that's not something you'll hear from me very often) they are far from unique in their approach to womens' roles.

yeah sorry, i was being typically Western.

yesman065 · 12-21-2006, 12:37 PM

500 or a 1000 years ago every thing was male dominated. Please don't try to lay this on the Catholic church. This planet was originally dominated by the physically strong species and the only way to survive was to be faster , stronger and better. Now that those rules no longer apply - the situation must and has changed. There can be no real equality though. We are after all different.

Phil · 12-21-2006, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesman065

500 or a 1000 years ago every thing was male dominated. Please don't try to lay this on the Catholic church. This planet was originally dominated by the physically strong species and the only way to survive was to be faster , stronger and better. Now that those rules no longer apply - the situation must and has changed. There can be no real equality though. We are after all different.

so you agree that a woman shouldnt be allowed to become a priest? how about a female pope? or even a black female pope? Herr Ratzinger would have a heart attck ... with any luck.

bluecuracao · 01-06-2007, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesman065

500 or a 1000 years ago every thing was male dominated.

Nooo no, not everything, back then. NOW, yes, despite feminism--which we desperately needed, by the way:

http://www.office-humour.co.uk/g/i/3796/

DanaC · 12-21-2006, 12:48 PM

Quote:

There can be no real equality though. We are after all different.

Care to explain that?

yesman065 · 12-21-2006, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Care to explain that?

Hmm, I think thats a loaded question. I'll try to rephrase this way - men and women are different - physically, biologically, physiologcally - we are opposites of the same species.

Please do not take my comment to mean that women or men are superior to the other. I was being somewhat fecisious. I believe that women and men - red, white, green or blue - should be paid for the function which they perform - period. Gender should have no basis on the amount someone makes.

12-19-2006, 08:33 PM	#1
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	The feminist movement has been integral to many small victories for women across the world. Just keep in mind that until Greer (a woman whom I hold in fairly deep disdain) started burning bras etc, women had far fewer rights. I don't necessarily condone some of her actions or opinions, however, because I believe it takes the point of view from extremes in any discussion to enable us to find a middle ground, her actions and those of her cronies has helped women across the world. Obviously the fight for women's rights began long before Greer's time. Probably the most important movement was when women lobbied successfully to be allowed a vote and therefore participation in the political process, and some sense of self determination over the course of their lives in conjunction with the country in which they live. Do I consider myself a feminist? Nope. I like having gentlemen open doors for me and all those other nice things. I enjoy being a wife to my husband and taking care of the house and kids etc. At the same time though, I enjoy a large degree of autonomy within the household and in my country. As a woman, I believe this is because of the ardent feminists who have paved the way for a better future and greater rights for women world wide. I don't think this is a detrimental thing for male and female equality. Women and men will always have roles that the majority of people find acceptable. The point of the womens movement is to cater for those of us, both male and female, who want to have the right to do things outside the normal sphere. Sure this causes discomfort for some neanderthals (both male and female) but in my very personal opinion, that's their own problem. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

12-20-2006, 07:45 AM	#2
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	We've come a long way, baby. Being an "I can do it myself" kind of person, I must concede that men are better at lifting heavy objects. I think a man opening the door is just polite, and it's impolite to act as if it's a woman's right and not thank him. No different than how I make sure doors don't slam in the face of people who are behind me or other similar situations. Modern chivalry is a good thing. Men should open doors and kill the bugs. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby

12-20-2006, 08:56 AM	#3
Shawnee123 Why, you're a regular Alfred E Einstein, ain't ya? Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 21,206	Spanky: Let's start a club right now. The He-man Woman-haters. I'll be president. Alfalfa: And I'll be second president, and you can be third president. Buckwheat: Thanks. Spanky: Alright, get up and do exactly what I do. Put your hand on your heart, and raise your other hand. We, the He-man Woman-haters club... Alfalfa and Buckwheat: We, the he-man woman-haters club... Spanky: ...promise not to fall for this Valentine's business... Alfalfa and Buckwheat: ...promise not to fall for this Valentine's business... Spanky: ...because girls are the bunk. Alfalfa and Buckwheat: ...because girls are the bunk. __________________ A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones who need the advice. --Bill Cosby Last edited by Shawnee123; 09-25-2007 at 11:50 AM.

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12-20-2006, 05:17 PM	#5
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	The problem with feminism.....as with any movement, is that it was and is made up of people. One person's feminism may not match another's. As with any movement, there was a particularly extreme wing, which also happened to be the most vocal and therefore defined the movement for those who observed from outside. I am glad we had that extreme wing, shouting and marching, even though I disagree with many of their views. It was necessary; the quiet approach which had prevailed for most of history was taking an awfully long time to have any effect. I would not have the freedoms I now have, had they been quiet and conciliatory. Another thing to bear in mind, when considering the main feminist movement, is the anger and frustration felt by many of the people involved. To be denied equality is an unpleasant thing. To be treated as less able, capable, worthwhile and important than another person merely because of an accident of birth is unpleasant. When people become angry and frustrated and sensitized to the unfairness that governs so much of their lives and range of opportunities; when someone discovers that their natural talents, desires, ambitions and proclivities, are not catered to by their proscribed place in society, and then track back a thousand years and find the roots of that unfairness spread through every part of their society and history, it can result in a rather extreme reaction. Interestingly, many of the same accusations which were levelled at the feminists of the 70s were also levelled at the suffragettes who fought for the vote in Britain. They were accused of being man haters, lesbians, women who were unnatural in that they wanted to take male roles etc etc.Even now, at a political meeting recently, when a speaker read extracts from a book she'd written about some local suffragettes, there were people arguing that they had gone too far and should not have resorted to the tactics they used.

12-20-2006, 05:19 PM	#6
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Are women in Britain paid closer to men than they are in the US?

12-20-2006, 05:22 PM	#7
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Depends on the industry or sector. Many sectors have extreme disparity. Even with some industries getting a handle on it, there is a massive disparity in the kinds of jobs women do and men do, and the wages commanded by the jobs women do more of, are lower than those commanded by the jobs men tend to do.

12-21-2006, 12:05 PM	#8
Phil Hoodoo Guru Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 304	i wonder how much of the suppression of women over the years is down to the catholic church?

12-21-2006, 12:25 PM	#9
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Some. But in fairness to the Catholic Church (and believe me that's not something you'll hear from me very often) they are far from unique in their approach to womens' roles.

12-21-2006, 12:37 PM	#11
yesman065 Banned - Self Imposed Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,847	500 or a 1000 years ago every thing was male dominated. Please don't try to lay this on the Catholic church. This planet was originally dominated by the physically strong species and the only way to survive was to be faster , stronger and better. Now that those rules no longer apply - the situation must and has changed. There can be no real equality though. We are after all different.

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