The coming liberal thugocracy

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Griff

Patterson doesn't appear to be buying into the Kennedy franchise. He has the only vote that counts.

Both Palin and Kennedy had a press pass for a little while, but then they started talking.

Can't argue with that.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

This is a good one, Neil smokes em..

I don't see that as a better idea. There are a few that are truly shaken by this recession and would pay off their debts, but the rest of the populace has already proven that any increase in income bids drunken sailor time. More spending by the public might slow the decline, but won't fix the system, just give the Chinese more money to buy US bonds. Plus I don't think his plan will help many of the out of work people that aren't paying taxes, as wild spending isn't going to create many jobs.

After that, our infrastructure still needs fixing, so that has to be addressed.
I just read today about PA;

We spend more than $2 billion a year on an immense system of roads that equals all the highways, local roads and city streets in New Jersey and New England combined. We've got more roads than California, a state three times our size. Potholes are the price we pay for enjoying all that nature's four seasons have to offer. Hot and humid summers mixed with cold and snowy winters equals expanding and contracting pavement. That means more cracks, which in turn become potholes big enough to swallow a Mini Cooper. But according to Overdrive magazine's annual survey, we no longer have the worst roads in the nation. That designation belongs to Arkansas. And for five years running, Pennsylvania was voted most improved. So, next time you bitch about the bumpy ride or construction delays, give us a break. We're working on it.

I fear other states are in the same boat.

For eight years we've been neglecting education and perverting science so badly it's going to take the feds to help getting that back on track. Granted I think the GM loan was a bad move, and Chrysler was a crime... yes crime, as in theft, fraud, string 'em up. But I still have hopes that Obama can get us moving in the right direction, so at least we don't drown swimming away from shore.

But basically the general public has to get their shit together and show some fiscal responsibility too. No you don't have to spend every cent you can beg, borrow and steal. No you don't need 8 credit cards maxed out. No you don't need a Jumbotron bigger than your house. I've rambled enough.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

But I still have hopes that Obama can get us moving in the right direction, so at least we don't drown swimming away from shore.

But basically the general public has to get their shit together and show some fiscal responsibility too. No you don't have to spend every cent you can beg, borrow and steal. No you don't need 8 credit cards maxed out. No you don't need a Jumbotron bigger than your house. I've rambled enough.

Ftw.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I don't see that as a better idea...


But basically the general public has to get their shit together and show some fiscal responsibility too. No you don't have to spend every cent you can beg, borrow and steal. No you don't need 8 credit cards maxed out. No you don't need a Jumbotron bigger than your house. I've rambled enough.

The good idea part is that the money will flow to whatever sectors of the economy the people value, hopefully avoiding the boom-bust of a massive temporary commitment by the Feds, which can lead to massive mis allocation of men and material. Middle-class folks can get their financial lives in order if they choose to.

There is a lot to be said for Obama's plan to improve infrastructure, but we do have to remember that the Democratic majority is temporary so the money spent needs to go into things of permanence that Republicans will complete or maintain. It is also possible to make the recession longer by hindering the natural flow of capital and manpower. At work, there is a lot of talk about Obama's comittment to early education, which I see as a good long-term investment. Unfortunately, relying on Federal dollars means that the comittment and the dollars can disappear on a whim leaving us with too many resources committed to things not presently in our bare-bones operation. I can see our organization going belly up if money leaves before mandates are reduced, which is standard Republican practice.

[TheMercenary]

I agree that the education process needs investment but that will not turn us around economically in the short term. And a short term immediate fix is what we need to survive this current crisis.

Even the discussion of an infrastructure investment, rebuilding roads, broadband advancements, etc is not going to give us a short term fix. One of the biggest weaknesses I see is that the average worker is pretty lazy when it comes to manual labor, unlike the WPA programs that were all about manual labor and putting people to work. Not everyone will be able to participate in that program of work. The 50 year old line worker from a GM plant may not be so willing to grab a shovel and hit the road. Much of the infrastructure discussion is more of a feel good solution to make our daily lives better but I still don't see how that is going to jump start our economy. Growing the number of people who are on a government pay roll by 400,000 is not a solution.

[classicman]

The infrastructure investment is a great idea - it immediately creates jobs from the bottom to the top. Puts money - real money into the hands of working consumers who will consume goods and services from all areas of the economy. There is absolutely nothing bad about that. There will be supplemental jobs, probably many off them that will spin off from this.

[DanaC]

Sounds like an interesting plan to me.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by classicman

The infrastructure investment is a great idea - it immediately creates jobs from the bottom to the top. Puts money - real money into the hands of working consumers who will consume goods and services from all areas of the economy. There is absolutely nothing bad about that. There will be supplemental jobs, probably many off them that will spin off from this.

It just seems like such a small area of the economy I don't see how it is going to jump start us back on the road to economic recovery. How does any of that address the real estate issue, mortgage crisis, or banking issues?

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I just read today about PA; I fear other states are in the same boat.

PA has unique problems because foundations beneath their roads are significantly less than what New Jersey does. PA roads break down faster because of insufficient, or in some cases, no roadbed foundations. The interstate highway called Route 80 as an example of why PA must spend more money constantly fixing roads. Citing PA is a poor or worse case example.

Question of whether money spent is on the right things will always be a challenge. But here is the rub. The economic benefits from these capital projects does not appear for four years.

Economics is not solved by making jobs. Jobs are only a symptom. How to make more jobs? Do the same work with less people. So yes, the sound byte is “make more jobs by eliminating employees.” (An example of how soundbytes distort facts.) 'Reap the benefits' (make possible more jobs) occurs when the benefits appear on spread sheets mostly four and more years later.

Making jobs by only making work creates less jobs. Especially true in an economy that must have a lower American standard of living to be fixed. Economics takes revenge for unproductive ‘make jobs’ activities. The solution (to stop economics taking revenge) has traditionally been things we don't like to admit such as bankruptcies and higher interest rates.

One can appreciate the severe contradictions that Obama faces. This recession is directly traceable to what we were doing four and more years ago. There is no short term solution for that kind of problem other than to minimize its symptoms using many forms of welfare (ie government spending without corresponding tax increases).

Very interesting will be how these policies will 'fix' an economy that deserves a severe recession, lowering the nation’s living standards, and the resulting hard decisions. It will be very interesting to see how policies that contradict the lessons of history will somehow solve this problem.

Some are so foolish as to ignore the numbers - assume the economy will upturn in a year. That's not what numbers suggest. The numbers say we will be paying off the last decade of economic mismanagement for most of the next decade.

That also gives credence to European suggestions that the Euro may replace the dollar as the dollar once replaced the pound. No, I am not saying that will happen either despite the many who would jump to that conclusion. But we have a problem far more serious that many realize as the elite profited massively while leaving Enron accounting lies that are only just beginning to be discovered.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

It just seems like such a small area of the economy I don't see how it is going to jump start us back on the road to economic recovery. How does any of that address the real estate issue, mortgage crisis, or banking issues?

True it's only one area that needs to be addressed, but one I don't want to see kicked to the curb in the fray. I'm not sure the feds can solve the real estate/mortgage/banking mess beyond treating the symptoms and letting play out. I hope somebody much smarter than me (that's most everyone) can find a solution.

Originally Posted by tw

Question of whether money spent is on the right things will always be a challenge. But here is the rub. The economic benefits from these capital projects does not appear for four years.

True, but maybe if people see some tangible effort to improve their infrastructure and services, they will perceive they can put some faith in the future and boost the economy.

Some are so foolish as to ignore the numbers - assume the economy will upturn in a year. That's not what numbers suggest. The numbers say we will be paying off the last decade of economic mismanagement for most of the next decade.

First I was hearing a year and was very skeptical. Then I was hearing 3to4 years and was cautiously optimistic. But I think we have to face the probability that we may never regain the level we've been living at for the past decade.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by classicman

The infrastructure investment is a great idea - it immediately creates jobs from the bottom to the top. Puts money - real money into the hands of working consumers who will consume goods and services from all areas of the economy. There is absolutely nothing bad about that. There will be supplemental jobs, probably many off them that will spin off from this.

I guess this is sort of what I was getting at. By Boortz:

http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2009/01...ansparent.html

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

True, but maybe if people see some tangible effort to improve their infrastructure and services, they will perceive they can put some faith in the future and boost the economy.

There is no doubt that infrastructure has been neglected. After all, replacing something does not get the credit found in building something new. The question also remains what infrastructure must be abandoned with the lower living standards.

We know just making jobs does not solve problems. But then look at the wide ranging questions already being asked by Obama.

For example, virtually all earth environment science in NASA has been quashed. Some birds were ready to fly when killed. Obama is asking some embarrassing questions about the new (Orion?) spacecraft ((that is rumored to have Shuttle like development problems). Also asking about grounding of so much science (American spaceflight) to pay for a 'Man to Mars' boondoggle. IOW he is asking about restarting the tiny budgets where virtually all NASA science was once done - such as something like eight earth environmental science spacecraft. After all, that (innovation, discovery, science) is what created productive jobs. So yes, this man appears to be asking damning questions that would result in productive jobs.

The initial problem cannot be solved. Massive obstruction to science over most of the past decade will haunt us with jobs not created in the next decade. Jobs that would have been created in future years have already been lost due to the stifling of innovation over the past eight years. Nothing can fix that. Rather interesting is that Obama is discussing a revival of the American innovation pipeline. He is discussing obstructions to productive job creation.

Another example are the jobs and exports made possible should be address global warning and other problem with new innovative products and industries. All hyped in the 'green' soundbyte. The hybrid car being an example of products available only from America had government continued to force the anti-innovative automakers to market existing innovations. Stifled hybrids is example of jobs lost AND how it now takes so long to create productive jobs. Jobs cannot be created by stifled innovations.

In short, the damage is so deep that it will take the next decade to restore the innovation pipeline to normal capacity so that jobs are created many years later. Just another example of why this economic damage will take so many years to correct.

There is no one magic example. Cited above in as short as possible are one in a long list of reasons why we have a recession and how long it will take to fix a problem that only we created.

[tw]

In TheMercenary's www.bootz.com political commentary is the perfect example of why we have been harming job creation this past decade.

Again, can someone please explain to me how switching all of America's medical records to computers is going to provide an immediate stimulus to our economy?

A perfect example of how jobs get created by doing what also destroys jobs. Eliminate a large bureaucracy with machines is why American companies generated so many jobs in the 1990s - and wealth, higher standards of living, more products, etc.

It has long been known that where industries did the equivalent, then those industries become world competitive. But instead, the political ostrich mentality is "is does not make jobs today so its money wasted". Jobs are best created by destroying jobs when we do more with less people. The resulting increased productivity always results in more jobs.

A medical information industry was only possible if standards exist. In software, Microsoft did that. In computers, wide ranging cross industry consortiums did that. In the auto industry(unfortunately) government standards were necessary to make that happen. Unfortunately that is also the problem in a medical industry where leadership is severely lacking. When the industry cannot create standards, government must. Why is a computerized medical record industry not destroying jobs? Apparently everyone who has tried to solve this problem is confronted with the same problem - no standards. Create standards and the medical record industry is another example of how productive jobs are created by eliminating unproductive jobs. Ironic as it sounds superficially, that is what we must do to halt a recession.

Having not done anything to address or even consider this records problem in the past 10 years, how many jobs were lost due to lower productivity - due to too many people manually doing that work. These is no magic solution that creates productive jobs this year or even next. It takes time for innovation to result in new jobs due to increased productivity. IOW that has remains stifled for most of the past decade. Maybe someone (Obama) will make that possible now. Or at least someone is actually considering a solution which is more than we can say for the past eight years. As usual, the productive jobs take years to create. There is no magic formula for creating productive jobs in the next two years. The time to have been addressing productive new jobs and industries was years ago. A recession necessary for years until innovation can show results.

The columist does not get it. Productive jobs are not created this year. He does not get it. Productive jobs come from innovations such as industry wide computerization that also destroys unproductive manual labor. And that takes years.

[zippyt]

[TheMercenary]

Those are frigging funny. Thanks for the laugh zippy!