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[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by BrianR
Chosen carefully and taken out of context.

I heard that segment and he was NOT excusing the soldiers who mistreated Iraqis. He's not even an apologist for them, he was simply making the point that a few rotten apples should not be used to judge ALL Americans any more than a few misguided Arabs who hijacked and subsequently crashed civilian jets into buildings, killing thousands, should not be used to judge all Arabs.

I can find the transcript on his website if I really want to.

Brian

No need. Here it is. (last four paragraphs) He was not talking about judging all Americans. He was being an apologist for the perpetrators, deliberately misinterpreting the caller's point, and saying that it was "understandable" that they could "lose control".

[Yelof]

Danac you mention My Lai and that there are always those of good heart mixed amongst the bad and I am reminded of

Hugh Thompson an American helicopter pilot who turned his guns on American troops at My Lai

[jaguar]

The british case is a funny one, it appears the pictures were faked, I wouldn't be shocked if the Mirror made up the whole thing. It is the Mirror after all.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by DanaC
Talking of the My Lai massacre.....Just as an aside, my ex's dad wrotea play about that called "Bodycount" which has been translated into serveral languages and performed in several countries ( including somewhere in the East but damned if I can recall where!)....was a wonderful play. He can write can Les.....Goes for the gritty little details that make it all come home and spins off into something beautiful and lyrical

The problem with plays is the gritty little details are often not true, which leads the play goers to think they know the true story, when in fact they don't.

[Crimson Ghost]

Originally posted by jaguar
The british case is a funny one, it appears the pictures were faked, I wouldn't be shocked if the Mirror made up the whole thing. It is the Mirror after all.

Are you saying that a publication would fake information?!? If this is true, it puts my view of "The National Enquirer", "The Star", and, most importantly, "The Weekly World News" into a whole new light. That means that BatBoy and Oprah Winfrey aren't getting married, and even worse, all those women aren't really married to aliens. I feel ...... dirty.

[DanaC]

Yelof, thanks for that . Just goes to show not everyone succombs to the heat of the moment.

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce

The problem with plays is the gritty little details are often not true, which leads the play goers to think they know the true story, when in fact they don't.

By that logic we should only ever have plays which are set in fantasy worlds for fear of accidentally giving someone the wrong impression.
Generally people who go to a play know that it's the playwrite's own interpretation of events ( on the occassions where real life has been the inspiration) Shakespeare was not an authority on the life of kings and nobody looks to Arthur Miller if they wish to get an authoritative history of the events surrounding either the witchhunts or McCarthyism.

Gritty little details are one of the things I pick out as common in Les Smith's plays. He is a political playwrite, his plays are there to tell stories he thinks should be told. Generally speaking the people watching and the people producing those plays know this. The other stylistic feature I picked out was his lyricism, which I think would prevent anybody from accidentally believing they were watching a documentary. I do however think he may have had a reasonable insight into the events given the several years of research and the interviews with some ofthe people concerned.


Originally posted by jaguar

The british case is a funny one, it appears the pictures were faked, I wouldn't be shocked if the Mirror made up the whole thing. It is the Mirror after all.

The Mirror has a habit of making up stuff about celebs...Gossip and so forth. When it comes to more weighty matters their track record is pretty good. Currently another soldier is talking to Officials at the MoD about further allegations of abuse. This soldier also approached the Mirror with his allegations. Piers Morgan is standing by his sources and indeed there are other soldiers who have refuted some ( though not all) ofthe evidence for the pictures being faked;for instance, the truck which has been reported as not being used by the army in Iraq is in fact in use by the territorial Army in Iraq. The headgear which was said to not be in use in Iraq it seemingly in fact is, as is evidenced by several other photos of other events in Iraq showing very clearly soldiers wearing that particular type of hat.

There is still much about the photos that doesnt quite ring right for me though....People are starting to suggest now, that the photos may have been a reconstruction of actual events. If that's the case then it's a little disengenuous of the rest of the press to focus on the potential for fake photographs when the verifiable evidence is now starting to emerge of serious breaches of human rights in Iraq at the hands of members of the British forces.

If that's the case then it is highly unlikely to be the mirror which has falked the evidence butrather the soldiers who brought it tothem. Since nobody has thus far been able to categorically prove them fakes, one must assume that the mirror also was unable to prove their veracity and instead made the judgement call that this was an issue of grave importance which neded to be brought tothe attention of the public. Now I realise they must have also had in mind the sale of newspapers, but I have noticed in the last few years that the mirror has a decided tendency to stick to it's guns on an issue even when there is an enormous pressure to back off ( as with the start of the Iraq war when the calls for dissenters to stand behind the troops in time of war were vociferous and showing the other side was dangerous to a profit making paper) They also show a remarkable reluctance to jump on the anti asylum issue despite the fact that many of their readership would probably accept it and some even welcome it. They have consistently takenthe opposing side to that, choosing instead to run features about the "Myths" surrounding asylum seekers and the newcomer states to Europe.

I dont suggest for a moment that they would continue to take that tack if they started to fail as a business nr do I hold them up as bringers of truth but I do think that Piers Morgan takes his journalistic integrity seriously when deaing with matters of grave importance such as war, warcrimes and fascist whispers in the British winds.

[tw]

Does it really matter whether one photo is fake? Yes to the integrity of that newspaper. It is why they have an Ombudsman. But newspaper integrity is promoted only to avoid the issue. The issue is this. Top management knew this abuse was ongoing and did nothing.

Rumsfeld even had the report of abuse and torture on his desk in March. He did nothing. He did not even read beyond the Executive Summary. IOW torture and abuse is condoned at the highest levels. THAT is the subject - not whether some paper reconstructed an event. We know that torture and sexual abuse was ongoing. We know it was reported to top management. We know top management did nothing - therefore condoned the abuse and torture - until the press exposed the issue. We know that the abusers and their officers only got reprimands - a slap on the hand - for doing something that would be years in jail elsewhere.

Just like there was no looting in Iraq. Just like we have enough troops in country. Just like the people were storming the streets when liberated. That is the issue. Top management would have us divert attention to the irrelevant. The bottom line remains that top management lied - which only encourages if not endorses torture and abuse. Then top management did nothing to stop it. These are the blunt facts that some would have us avoid. Don't fall for their propaganda. The only question in this thread remains - how corrupt is our leadership? Not whether the picture in a paper is legitimate. A far more serious question remains that we should have been asking when Camp Delta and the Patriot Act were being promoted. How corrupt is the George Jr administration. Not whether they are corrupt. How corrupt?

[Undertoad]

All I ask, tw, is that you stop just making shit up.

It turns out they removed the six, uh, alleged fuckwad guards from duty a few days after they found out about it in January, and initiated court-martial procedures, and by March had instituted a new command structure at the prison with a large set of reforms, and on March 20 had a press conference on it. At some point they asked to not have 60 Minutes air the photos because they felt it would be too dangerous for the troops in the field at the time.

[Undertoad]

Worst of it: there are tons more photos and even videos.

[russotto]

Originally posted by Undertoad

It turns out they removed the six, uh, alleged fuckwad guards from duty a few days after they found out about it in January, and initiated court-martial procedures, and by March had instituted a new command structure at the prison with a large set of reforms, and on March 20 had a press conference on it.

UT, are you saying that the military command structure not only knew about this, but they were on top of it and had the situation resolved long before the story hit the big time?

Now that I would find very hard to believe.

[DanaC]

Given what I have been seeing on the news I'm with russotto on this

[Undertoad]

The hearings are live for the last two hours, I'm just telling you what they said.

[DanaC]

Fair enough UT ....Here *hands UT a *

[tw]

Originally posted by Undertoad
All I ask, tw, is that you stop just making shit up.

It turns out they removed the six, uh, alleged fuckwad guards from duty a few days after they found out about it in January, and initiated court-martial procedures,

Provide all the facts UT. First the entire MP company - except for a few - are now being investiagated if not reprimanded. This only *after* the press reported the coverup. Only one court-martial was being considered. Other five just reprimanded. Now most everyone in the unit, "except a few" (and that is an exact Rumsfeld quote) is suspect - as they should be. The abuse was that widespread.

How widespread the abuse was stated by Rumsfeld in testimony today as Senators such as McCain and Clinton took him apart. Especially damning was the angry questioning from McCain who demanded Rumsfeld display knowledge and stop asking a General to, instead, answer the questions. McCain demonstrated how little Rumsfeld really knew of the problem. Rumsfeld had mostly ignored the entire affair which is why he could not even list the command structure from him down to the unit. Again he was dependent on his General to answer questions of specific facts because he did not know specific and major facts.

Lynne English had long been transfered out because she was pregnant in Iraq. Her boyfriend is another story of "wrong man to be prison guard". Only after her transfer out was she being investigated. Only a few were taken back to the US for investigation. One officer tried to claim the problem only existed on third shift. But the abuse may have spread beyond this MP unit. Units now in Germany are also under investigation. Rumors have it that at least two other American prison facilities may also be involved.

Of course Rumsfeld did not dispute the facts. Instead he blamed people with digital cameras taking unauthorized pictures AND leaking secret information to the press. Of course. Blame the messenger so they don't blame top management. Cast blame everywhere so that we forget - 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Of course DoD refused to even followup an investigation of almost the entire MP unit- leaving the two foot tall study mostly unread. Even the Red Cross had warned Rumsfeld of problems. Rumsfeld's comment also included "...they found problems as they always do...". It demonstrated how little he really regarded the problem.

Where Sen Hillary cited accusations against Chaplain Yee. All charges against this Chaplain in Guantanamo Bay were trumped up, quickly leaked to the press, and eventually (quietly) dropped. Why did the DoD not trump the dropping of those charges as they had hyped Yee's arrest (on phony charges)? If what Yee did in Guantanamo was serious, then why is his so called secret crime not kept secret. Whereas widespread abuse in Iraq is not disclosed?

Rumsfeld claims this Iraq problem was all disclosed in January. Then he blames whistle blowers and people with digital cameras for creating all problems. No. The problem was Rumsfeld, et al were keeping this quiet and not charging any officers. Again, almost zero court-martials. That probably now will change due to whistle blowers - the same whistle blowers that Rumsfeld blames instead of taking blaming for Rumsfeld's inaction.

How did CBS get the story? Rumsfeld's staff was quick to leak charges against Chaplin Yee but not tell anyone about the abuse in Iraq. Double standard. This is the ethics of the man and his administration. Since nothing was happening to stop the problem in Iraq - same officers (except top officers) remained at that prison long after six were returned to the states. Then patriots - whistle blowers - let the word out. So Rumsfeld instead blames those whistle blowers - rather than the principles he had advocated first in Guantanamo Bay. Now most everyone in the MP unit will finally be investigated. UT forgets to mention that part.

Furthermore, Rumsfeld apparently knew the CBS story was going to be reported in advance. He knew it even when he testified, only hours before the story was released, before Congress. The same Congressman he is suppose to report these things to; yet he said nothing. Rumsfeld thought the story so insignificant that he did not even tell his boss - George Jr - of the story in advance. At least that is the president's public statement.

Get your facts right UT. Stop hugging the mental midget president everytime they get caught lying. The question is how many people will now be blamed for condoning sexual abuse and torture. Don't question whether a newspaper picture is legit. Question what did Rumsfeld know and when did he know it. Rumsfeld was sitting on the case - not even continuing the investigation beyond maybe one court-martial. No they were not going to court-martial all six. Now that may change because patriots - whistle blowers - exposed a Rumsfeld coverup.

[DanaC]

Well said tw. Anything else is just misdirection, stories of fakery to take our attention away from the nub of the matter.