Government Shut Down

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

Mainstream Republicans are VERY uncomfortable with the shutdown. This may be a harbinger of the future of politics. If the Democrats elect socialists, the conservatives will simply shut down the gov't, in order to be represented in a liberal government that, like Reid and Pelosi, want their way or the highway, for everybody else.

OR, the republicans could build their base by taking care of their constituents so they have enough votes to hold their own in congress, instead of whoring themselves to the 1%.

[Lamplighter]

Quit the quibbling. It was not FAUX drama, and all the rest of the above is well known.

The point was, EVEN IF the patient met the study criteria, NO ONE was being admitted to them,
because they "couldn't be registered", for it.
You can't fail to see the hand of the gov't bureaucrat in this.

It is FAUX drama and as you say... all the rest above is well known.

Why is the government shutdown happening in the first place ...
Is it because the GOP is fighting in every way it can to kill Obamacare ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.

If the so, how do you balance your "just one child" against the GOP goal
of killing a program of health care benefits for several millions.
Among those millions, would there be "just one child" to die for lack of medical care ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.


It's the difference between the GOP's concern over $,
and the Democrat's concern for the people's welfare,
by advancing government programs to do the most
good possible for those that need it most.

When it comes down to it, naming-calling and "gotcha moments" are, indeed, faux drama.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

It is FAUX drama and as you say... all the rest above is well known.

Why is the government shutdown happening in the first place ...
Is it because the GOP is fighting in every way it can to kill Obamacare ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.

No. Obamacare is just ONE problem. The bigger problems are:

1) Obama wants to "redistribute wealth", which never goes over well with conservatives. They have that odd idea that their money should stay with them.

I know, what a concept.

2) Obama has relentlessly expanded gov't. Number of employee's - way up, expenses - WAY UP, debt ceiling - WAY UP! Obamacare simply moves the feds into your entire medical treatments, etc. Conservatives definitely don't WANT the federal gov't, running their lives, or running their medical care! Once your medial records are all digitized, how long before your personal ID information is hacked into and stolen?

You say "Oh, that could never happen!". That's what you thought about Operation Prism when the Patriot Bill was passed, remember?
Gov't computers are hacked - even the Pentagon's.

As gov't continues to grow, YOU become smaller, and have far less control over your life.

3) Obama refuses to take obvious steps that would endear him to business: keystone pipeline project, remove the medical devices tax he just added, simplify the tax code a bit, and surprise, lower the medical costs, by simply enacting some parts of the legislation in Obamacare, without the rest of it.

4) Obama has given very little respect to the Republicans in general, and conservatives in particular, throughout his term. Every serious error he's made, has been glossed over by the media so incredibly, it's ridiculous.

And then there's sonOfABitch in the Senate, and Reid is just someone who's hard to get any negotiating done with. Same with Pelosi, when she was House leader.

I did get a hell of a laugh out of Pelosi's statement: "food stamps are a great way to stimulate the economy". That one had me rolling in the aisle.

Now Obama wants to negotiate, as will Reid and the Senate, ONLY after the shutdown is ended, and the debt ceiling is raised.

Sure! "I'll be glad to negotiate with you, right after I've gotten everything I wanted!"

That's not negotiating, is it? That's what the democrats are calling it, but that's not negotiating.

If the so, how do you balance your "just one child" against the GOP goal
of killing a program of health care benefits for several millions.
Among those millions, would there be "just one child" to die for lack of medical care ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.


It's the difference between the GOP's concern over $,
and the Democrat's concern for the people's welfare,
by advancing government programs to do the most
good possible for those that need it most.

When it comes down to it, naming-calling and "gotcha moments" are, indeed, faux drama.

Since every person will be treated in any emergency room, with or without money, your argument is mostly false. Clearly, lots of people don't get the kind of regular medical exams, etc., that would benefit them, however. I agree that we need a better health care plan in the country. But I don't want the feds running it.

Strangely enough, I'd like doctors, hospital managers, and medical insurance experts running our health plan.

[Lamplighter]

Adak, do you re-write your posts each time like this,
or do you copy/paste from some where ?

If you wish, you could just insert a link. Here it is it for your post above.
http://www.cellar.org/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=91

Likewise, I'll just insert a link for my response, like this.

----

OK, now back for the reason the GOP caused this government shutdown... Obamacare.

<snip>Since every person will be treated in any emergency room,
with or without money, your argument is mostly false.
Clearly, lots of people don't get the kind of regular medical exams, etc.,
that would benefit them, however.
I agree that we need a better health care plan in the country.
But I don't want the feds running it.

Strangely enough, I'd like doctors, hospital managers,
and medical insurance experts running our health plan.

Lets quibble a bit....

As examples:
NIH is a federal facility that is treating (some) patients as part of health research projects.
VA hospitals are federal facilities around the country that are treating veterans.

Who do you feel should run these... for-profit corporations ?

As alternative examples:
With Obamacare, anyone can sign up for A.C.A. plans of health care coverage.
All of their care will come via existing hospitals and doctors,
managed by hospital managers in health care plans created
by medical insurance experts ... not as part of the federal facilities system.
Then reimbursement $ comes from that plan's health insurance provider.

In some situations, patients who qualify for Medicare and/or Medicaid
(and/or perhaps some other federal programs) will also be treated
in these same non-federal system hospitals, but reimbursement $
comes from the federal government.

How does Obamacare NOT fit you "likes" ?

[Adak]

I write up every reply, individually. A link isn't well received and won't be used, unless it's corroborating the posted text of your reply.

to fit my likes:

1) my medical history stays OUTSIDE any federal databases.

2) the national plan is for everyone. No exemptions, no tax credits, refunds, etc.No unions or corporations get a pass to stay outside the system, etc. If they want more medical coverage than the national plan offers, they can buy it, of course, but EVERYONE is in the national plan if they are a citizen.

Non-citizens are not in the plan, and can't join the plan. They don't get free medical care on our dime, as is currently the case.

Without a broad base of healthy people, any medical insurance system will go broke, or have to charge exorbitant prices, before long.

3) no "send Grandma home with a pain pill instead of a treatment". "Grandma" gets the same good treatment as the rest of us, if she's in the plan.

4) we pay the same prices as Canada, and the rest of the world, for our drugs. Having us forced to pay 2 to 5 x as much, is a travesty.

5) no changes can be made to the national plan, without a 45 day period of consideration, AFTER the bill is proposed, IN FULL.

No more of this "we'll find out what's in the bill, after we pass it".

I'm quite familiar with the VA hospitals. Their policies nearly killed my dad.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If the shills for the 1% hadn't been screaming bad, socialist, redistribution of wealth, and actually worked for it, then everything thing you've listed could have been in this act.

But because of that obstructive action Obama had to weaken the plan by making deals with the drug companies, AMA, Insurance companies, medical equipment manufacturers, et al.
And don't tell me they should have debated it longer before voting, that's bullshit. The same people would have voted the same way, like they were told to.

Those corporations are powerful because they've got money out the wazoo to buy politicians and hire enough lobbyists to keep a tight rein on them.
But the fact remains, no matter how big a war chest the politicians are given, it's stupid voters,(hey that's my party right or wrong) and apathetic voters, (why bother my vote don't count) that allow them to keep screwing us.

[Lamplighter]

Despite my " liberal tendencies "... I do try to read the occasional conservative news source.

I came across this article from Bloomberg News that I find interesting and believable.
But be warned, the article is about a report from a highly Democratic political strategist.

Bloomberg - The Ticker
Francis Wilkinson
Oct 4, 2013
Why Republicans Shut Down the Government

If you want to understand why the government is shut down
or why elected Republicans would even consider doing something as reckless
as using a debt default to extract policy concessions from the White House
-- without necessarily even knowing which policy concessions they want --
Stan Greenberg has a memo for you.

Democracy Corps issued a report this week on six focus groups conducted
with Republican subgroups -- two each with Tea Partiers, Evangelicals and moderate Republicans.
The results somehow manage to be unsurprising and shocking at the same time
-- largely due to the bracing effects of reading the real words of (almost) average Americans.
<snip>

http://www.democracycorps.com/attach...ticle/954/dcor rpp fg 1000313 final.pdf
This link (above) will download a pdf file of the "memo" entitled:

Inside the GOP: Report on focus groups with Evangelical,
Tea Party, and moderate Republicans

<snip>
The Republican moderates were staunch fiscal conservatives, but most readily embraced
new gender relations and minority empowerment, including gay rights.
The Tea Partiers and evangelicals spoke as if they were in the midst of War of the Worlds.
As the report characterizes the Tea-Party worldview:
"Obama's America is an unmitigated evil based on big government, regulations and dependency."

The Bloomberg article continues...

It's a tough situation to rectify.
A lot of Americans were not ready for a mixed-race president.
They weren't ready for gay marriage.
They weren't ready for the wave of legal and illegal immigration
that redefined American demographics over the past two or three
decades, bringing in lots of nonwhites.
They weren't ready -- who was? -- for the brutal effects of globalization
on working- and middle-class Americans or the devastating fallout from the financial crisis.

Their representatives didn't stop Obamacare.
And their side didn't "take back America" in 2012 as Fox News
and conservative radio personalities led them to believe they would.
They feel the culture is running away from them (and they're mostly right).
They lack the power to control their own government.
But they still have just enough to shut it down.

I downloaded the pdf memo and I do recommend it those interested in straight and raw politics .
As the Forbes article says, it is both unsurprising and shocking.
These focus groups definitely are NOT always using politically correct language !