Government Shut Down

[Lamplighter]

No one would have predicted that the NIH would have been shut down,
AND that the Senate would not approve (or possibly even vote on),
a resolution from the House, to keep it working.

First, the position of the Senate was well-known before even
the first vote by the GOP demanding de-funding Obamacare.

Next, NIH did not shut down... they continued all patient support,
and interrupted only their non-essential management activities.

Further, the "just one child" is faux drama by the GOP.
NIH does not take on patient treatment for the sake of the person who is suffering.
Each individual is enrolled in NIH research only if they meet the given research criteria.
In fact, the person may be given "non-therapeutic treatment" as part of,
for example, a classic double-blind control study.

I agreed with you that the "gotcha" question sent Reid off in a tizzy,
but to suggest the GOP didn't know what they were doing or
could not foresee the ramifications is not tenable.

Bit then, if you want to argue the GOP does not know what it is doing,...

it says a something about (your opinion of) the GOP.

[Lamplighter]

This is the Google News on "Republicans" today (10/4/13), yet the GOP says they are winning.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yeah, but that's just the liberal main stream media Obama owns.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

First, the position of the Senate was well-known before even
the first vote by the GOP demanding de-funding Obamacare.

So, because the Sen. Majority Leader Reid announces that he will let no compassionate bill be passed, during the shutdown...

Somehow, that makes him a good guy?? No! That just makes him a predetermined SonOfABitch.

Next, NIH did not shut down... they continued all patient support,
and interrupted only their non-essential management activities.

That wasn't argued. READ THE DAMN ARTICLE! NEW patients (including children), will NOT be accepted into NEW trials, because they "couldn't be registered", into them.

Somehow, due to the media coverage, the registration is now going forward. Problem solved. No thanks to Reid or the Democrats.

Further, the "just one child" is faux drama by the GOP.
NIH does not take on patient treatment for the sake of the person who is suffering.
Each individual is enrolled in NIH research only if they meet the given research criteria.
In fact, the person may be given "non-therapeutic treatment" as part of,
for example, a classic double-blind control study.

Quit the quibbling. It was not FAUX drama, and all the rest of the above is well known.

The point was, EVEN IF the patient met the study criteria, NO ONE was being admitted to them, because they "couldn't be registered", for it.
You can't fail to see the hand of the gov't bureaucrat in this.

I agreed with you that the "gotcha" question sent Reid off in a tizzy,
but to suggest the GOP didn't know what they were doing or
could not foresee the ramifications is not tenable.

Bit then, if you want to argue the GOP does not know what it is doing,...

it says a something about (your opinion of) the GOP.

The GOP knew what they were doing however, no one knows how the President will respond. He has fairly broad discretion in deciding what will, and what will not, be shut down.

But we can be sure that Obama will do everything he can to make us as uncomfortable as possible, during the shutdown. Then he will continue to make us paupers, at his leisure. I can hardly wait.

To be fair, Obama wasn't the first President to use this strategy. I'm hearing that Nixon came up with it, but never used it. I don't remember Ford using it during his shut down, but Ford was a nice guy. Same with Carter. Inept President, but undoubtedly one of the most civil Presidents we've ever had, despite some very trying times. (bad economy and hostages in Iran)

Clinton used it during the shutdown quarrel with Gingrich, closing the Washington Monument, I remember. He didn't close the open air memorials, I don't believe. Hard to remember it all.

Mainstream Republicans are VERY uncomfortable with the shutdown. This may be a harbinger of the future of politics. If the Democrats elect socialists, the conservatives will simply shut down the gov't, in order to be represented in a liberal government that, like Reid and Pelosi, want their way or the highway, for everybody else.

How can you negotiate something - anything - with a Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi. They're absolutists, and will make it clear even before any "negotiations", that they won't negotiate.

Isn't that EXACTLY what Harry Reid did here? He finally got called into the White House to negotiate, but he wouldn't do it.

OK, you SonsOfBitches, enjoy your shut down.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

Mainstream Republicans are VERY uncomfortable with the shutdown. This may be a harbinger of the future of politics. If the Democrats elect socialists, the conservatives will simply shut down the gov't, in order to be represented in a liberal government that, like Reid and Pelosi, want their way or the highway, for everybody else.

OR, the republicans could build their base by taking care of their constituents so they have enough votes to hold their own in congress, instead of whoring themselves to the 1%.

[Lamplighter]

Quit the quibbling. It was not FAUX drama, and all the rest of the above is well known.

The point was, EVEN IF the patient met the study criteria, NO ONE was being admitted to them,
because they "couldn't be registered", for it.
You can't fail to see the hand of the gov't bureaucrat in this.

It is FAUX drama and as you say... all the rest above is well known.

Why is the government shutdown happening in the first place ...
Is it because the GOP is fighting in every way it can to kill Obamacare ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.

If the so, how do you balance your "just one child" against the GOP goal
of killing a program of health care benefits for several millions.
Among those millions, would there be "just one child" to die for lack of medical care ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.


It's the difference between the GOP's concern over $,
and the Democrat's concern for the people's welfare,
by advancing government programs to do the most
good possible for those that need it most.

When it comes down to it, naming-calling and "gotcha moments" are, indeed, faux drama.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

It is FAUX drama and as you say... all the rest above is well known.

Why is the government shutdown happening in the first place ...
Is it because the GOP is fighting in every way it can to kill Obamacare ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.

No. Obamacare is just ONE problem. The bigger problems are:

1) Obama wants to "redistribute wealth", which never goes over well with conservatives. They have that odd idea that their money should stay with them.

I know, what a concept.

2) Obama has relentlessly expanded gov't. Number of employee's - way up, expenses - WAY UP, debt ceiling - WAY UP! Obamacare simply moves the feds into your entire medical treatments, etc. Conservatives definitely don't WANT the federal gov't, running their lives, or running their medical care! Once your medial records are all digitized, how long before your personal ID information is hacked into and stolen?

You say "Oh, that could never happen!". That's what you thought about Operation Prism when the Patriot Bill was passed, remember?
Gov't computers are hacked - even the Pentagon's.

As gov't continues to grow, YOU become smaller, and have far less control over your life.

3) Obama refuses to take obvious steps that would endear him to business: keystone pipeline project, remove the medical devices tax he just added, simplify the tax code a bit, and surprise, lower the medical costs, by simply enacting some parts of the legislation in Obamacare, without the rest of it.

4) Obama has given very little respect to the Republicans in general, and conservatives in particular, throughout his term. Every serious error he's made, has been glossed over by the media so incredibly, it's ridiculous.

And then there's sonOfABitch in the Senate, and Reid is just someone who's hard to get any negotiating done with. Same with Pelosi, when she was House leader.

I did get a hell of a laugh out of Pelosi's statement: "food stamps are a great way to stimulate the economy". That one had me rolling in the aisle.

Now Obama wants to negotiate, as will Reid and the Senate, ONLY after the shutdown is ended, and the debt ceiling is raised.

Sure! "I'll be glad to negotiate with you, right after I've gotten everything I wanted!"

That's not negotiating, is it? That's what the democrats are calling it, but that's not negotiating.

If the so, how do you balance your "just one child" against the GOP goal
of killing a program of health care benefits for several millions.
Among those millions, would there be "just one child" to die for lack of medical care ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.


It's the difference between the GOP's concern over $,
and the Democrat's concern for the people's welfare,
by advancing government programs to do the most
good possible for those that need it most.

When it comes down to it, naming-calling and "gotcha moments" are, indeed, faux drama.

Since every person will be treated in any emergency room, with or without money, your argument is mostly false. Clearly, lots of people don't get the kind of regular medical exams, etc., that would benefit them, however. I agree that we need a better health care plan in the country. But I don't want the feds running it.

Strangely enough, I'd like doctors, hospital managers, and medical insurance experts running our health plan.

[Lamplighter]

Adak, do you re-write your posts each time like this,
or do you copy/paste from some where ?

If you wish, you could just insert a link. Here it is it for your post above.
http://www.cellar.org/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=91

Likewise, I'll just insert a link for my response, like this.

----

OK, now back for the reason the GOP caused this government shutdown... Obamacare.

<snip>Since every person will be treated in any emergency room,
with or without money, your argument is mostly false.
Clearly, lots of people don't get the kind of regular medical exams, etc.,
that would benefit them, however.
I agree that we need a better health care plan in the country.
But I don't want the feds running it.

Strangely enough, I'd like doctors, hospital managers,
and medical insurance experts running our health plan.

Lets quibble a bit....

As examples:
NIH is a federal facility that is treating (some) patients as part of health research projects.
VA hospitals are federal facilities around the country that are treating veterans.

Who do you feel should run these... for-profit corporations ?

As alternative examples:
With Obamacare, anyone can sign up for A.C.A. plans of health care coverage.
All of their care will come via existing hospitals and doctors,
managed by hospital managers in health care plans created
by medical insurance experts ... not as part of the federal facilities system.
Then reimbursement $ comes from that plan's health insurance provider.

In some situations, patients who qualify for Medicare and/or Medicaid
(and/or perhaps some other federal programs) will also be treated
in these same non-federal system hospitals, but reimbursement $
comes from the federal government.

How does Obamacare NOT fit you "likes" ?

[Adak]

I write up every reply, individually. A link isn't well received and won't be used, unless it's corroborating the posted text of your reply.

to fit my likes:

1) my medical history stays OUTSIDE any federal databases.

2) the national plan is for everyone. No exemptions, no tax credits, refunds, etc.No unions or corporations get a pass to stay outside the system, etc. If they want more medical coverage than the national plan offers, they can buy it, of course, but EVERYONE is in the national plan if they are a citizen.

Non-citizens are not in the plan, and can't join the plan. They don't get free medical care on our dime, as is currently the case.

Without a broad base of healthy people, any medical insurance system will go broke, or have to charge exorbitant prices, before long.

3) no "send Grandma home with a pain pill instead of a treatment". "Grandma" gets the same good treatment as the rest of us, if she's in the plan.

4) we pay the same prices as Canada, and the rest of the world, for our drugs. Having us forced to pay 2 to 5 x as much, is a travesty.

5) no changes can be made to the national plan, without a 45 day period of consideration, AFTER the bill is proposed, IN FULL.

No more of this "we'll find out what's in the bill, after we pass it".

I'm quite familiar with the VA hospitals. Their policies nearly killed my dad.