Hydrogen Fuel Cells

Griff · 01-09-2002, 08:36 AM

"The Bush administration is walking away from a $1.5 billion eight- year government-subsidized project to develop high-mileage gasoline- fueled vehicles. Instead it is throwing its support behind a plan that the Energy Department and the auto industry have devised to develop hydrogen-based fuel cells to power the cars of the future, administration and industry officials said yesterday. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/09/bu...odaysheadlines

Its obvious that our reliance on foreign oil is a problem, however is this realistic or just avoidance behavior.

juju · 01-09-2002, 10:01 AM

Bush may not care about the environment but he's not stupid. He probably realizes that if we don't lessen our dependence on oil then we're probably going to be bombed one day.

Undertoad · 01-09-2002, 10:28 AM

We are on the way already. In 1990 fuel costs were 8% of the GNP, now they're 3%. I don't have any source or context for this statement as I heard it in passing. Also Russian and Mexican sources are gearing up which will lessen the importance of the Mideast.

The truth is that such innovations don't come from government "investments" anyway -- as the article points out, the only two automakers with hybrid vehicles on the market are Honda and Toyota, who didn't have anything to do with earlier "initiatives". The market, as always, is driven by demand and any political changes only confuse the matter. After the last serious oil crunch there were scores of bills in the legislature concerning synthetic fuels and alternative energy, and 20 years later we are still driving internal combusion engines fueled with petroleum.

The truth is that a lot of these technologies are just barely out of reach. If gas prices were to double and stay there, you'd see hybrids and fuel cells and hydrogen and natural gas and all sorts of of other things in short order.

Griff · 01-09-2002, 11:05 AM

I see it as simple collusion meant to guarantee market dominance for the big three. I wonder what tw thinks?

01-09-2002, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff
I wonder what tw thinks?

That Sharon is a "dic head", of course!

As far as oil prices, I think one of the best things that could possibly happen would be gas prices going up to like $5/gallon - you'd see a lot of people dumping their gas-guzzlers for more fuel-efficient models, and in turn, more fuel-efficient models would be produced. That's a <b>good</b> thing.

russotto · 01-09-2002, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic

That Sharon is a "dic head", of course!

As far as oil prices, I think one of the best things that could possibly happen would be gas prices going up to like $5/gallon - you'd see a lot of people dumping their gas-guzzlers for more fuel-efficient models, and in turn, more fuel-efficient models would be produced. That's a <b>good</b> thing.

Um, if you don't ignore the side effects. Like everything which depends on fuel (which is just about everything) increasing in cost. You want to cause instant recession, that'll do it.

Further, I could use a big gas guzzling monster about now. You know how much Ikea charges to deliver two $75 bookshelves? $110! Gack. How am I supposed to furnish my place if I can't get any furniture?

01-09-2002, 01:03 PM

Well, for eating up more gas than the rest of us, therefore causing prices to rise further... that's the price you pay.

Recession is bad and all, but what happens when we run out of fuel? It WILL happen, and we BETTER have something to carry us. Talk about the instant recession when that hits - no more power. What then?

If the prices went up, at least we'd be forced to innovate other solutions.

elSicomoro · 01-09-2002, 02:34 PM

The fact that Chevrolet got rid of the Metro (and Suzuki dumped its sister car, the Swift) saddens me.

Now what the hell am I supposed to buy? A Kia? Oh hell no!

Undertoad · 01-09-2002, 02:42 PM

What'll happen: the synfuels and natural gas and fuel cells and batteries and fuel-efficient cars and bike/Segway lanes and ALL other such alternatives will NATURALLY eke into the market. Because gas prices will rise due to limited supply, making the alternatives slowly viable.

By the time petroleum is truly in short supply, the alternatives will then be in place. The futures market will ensure that the price increase of petroleum due to short supply is flattened, so that the economy doesn't have to absorb the effect all at once.

Which is, after all, the whole problem: everyone wants to engineer solutions, which they want to implement all at once, massively screwing up the whole market activity which tends to naturally, invisibly solve these kinds of problems by itself.

Ardax · 01-09-2002, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sycamore
The fact that Chevrolet got rid of the Metro (and Suzuki dumped its sister car, the Swift) saddens me.

If this is the same Geo Metro I'm thinking of, I'm certainly not shedding any tears over it. Have you ever driven one of those? That was one seriously underpowered car (given it only had 3 cylinders, but still...).

elSicomoro · 01-09-2002, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ardax
If this is the same Geo Metro I'm thinking of, I'm certainly not shedding any tears over it. Have you ever driven one of those? That was one seriously underpowered car (given it only had 3 cylinders, but still...).

Don't make me have to come find you!

I love my 1995 Geo Metro. The gas mileage numbers aren't as great as they probably were when it was new (the car is 7 years old and has 116,000 miles on it), but it's lean on fuel. We have the LSi, which is a 4-cylinder, and gives about 80 or so hp. (I believe the 3-cylinders were 60 or 65 hp.) My only real complaint is that it is indeed small, but it works wonders for parking in Center City Philadelphia.

juju · 01-09-2002, 07:32 PM

Well, after I get my CS degree, i'm definitely gonna look into getting one of those cool hybrid cars. Hell, if i'm gonna spend that much money, I might as well vote with my dollars.

Ardax · 01-09-2002, 08:48 PM

Quote:

I love my 1995 Geo Metro.

/me removes foot from mouth.

How is the 4-cyl version, as I only had the joy *cough* of driving 3-cyl models? Those ones could barely make it up the hills around town. I'm talking "pedal on the floor, 35 mph and dropping" kind of "barely make it up hills." This was a brand new car, being delivered to a customer too.

Ah back in the days of working at a dealership.

Now the '95 Chevy Impalas were cars with some serious balls. Black, v-8, and every amenity you could imagine except for a hot sex slave in the passenger seat.

It jumped against the brakes when you put it in gear. You'd be moving at 10 mph in the time it took you to get your foot from the brake to the gas. I liked that car. For some reason they wouldn't let me take the Corvette out. I mean, I was 18! I was an adult!

Yeah. Back to reality, and the topic at hand now.

I'd much rather move to the southwest and get a motorcycle than get one of those hybrid cars. Not that I have anything against them, I just want a bike to drive all year 'round.

Much as I'd love to have that kind of fuel economy, I find myself needing lots of cargo space far too often for such a small car to be viable. That and I'm 6'2" -- those cars don't look comfortable to me.

(I could be wrong on that though, I'll reserve final judgement until I can sit in one.)

elSicomoro · 01-09-2002, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ardax
/me removes foot from mouth.

*laughs* It's all good.

Quote:

How is the 4-cyl version, as I only had the joy *cough* of driving 3-cyl models? Those ones could barely make it up the hills around town. I'm talking "pedal on the floor, 35 mph and dropping" kind of "barely make it up hills." This was a brand new car, being delivered to a customer too.

The Joys of Driving a Geo Metro by Sycamore

For the most part, the Geo Metro is a solid vehicle. Acceleration is weak, as should be expected--zero to 60 in about 15 seconds or so. No problems on inclines though. The 3-speed automatic transmission gives fair acceleration and steady throttle. Fuel economy varies, depending on driving conditions--as low as 24mpg in the city and as high as 35mpg on the highway. I will test this again shortly, as it just received a tune-up.

The end.

Quote:

Now the '95 Chevy Impalas were cars with some serious balls. Black, v-8, and every amenity you could imagine except for a hot sex slave in the passenger seat.

Those WERE great cars. I don't like the new ones...in fact, I'm pissed that they dropped the Caprices...how can you go wrong with a rear-wheel drive, 350 short block V-8, full size luxury sedan? I had an '88 Caprice for 2 years. Man, I loved that car so much. Driving in snow sucked, but everything has a limitation.

Said car can be found here.

Quote:

Much as I'd love to have that kind of fuel economy, I find myself needing lots of cargo space far too often for such a small car to be viable. That and I'm 6'2" -- those cars don't look comfortable to me. (I could be wrong on that though, I'll reserve final judgement until I can sit in one.)

Incidentally, my best friend from high school and his family drove a Chevette from 1980 to 1993 or so. Unusual? When your entire family is over 6'2" (and my friend is 6'10"), it is. And they didn't have a problem with height, space, etc.

During my last week at my job, we had a company luncheon. They asked me if I could take a couple of people. I was leery, given that I own a Geo Metro (and it was a mess at the time). Somehow, I fit myself (5'8", about 275 lbs.), a woman over 300 lbs., and a man 6'5" tall--and he was in the back. How we did it, I will never know.

Griff · 01-10-2002, 08:23 AM

Syc, Shouldn't your Metro be doing better than that, mileage wise? I had a '86 VW Jetta years ago that was over 40mpg on the highway. If parts for the darn thing were not so expensive, I'd still be running it. You know those gigantic Cummins Diesel Dodge pickups? My buddies getting 23mpg highway with his. He went synthetic with all his fluids (um vehicle lubricants not bodily) but I don't think he's done anything else, although he's a capable mechanic. On the other hand, my little Nissan 4x4 is lucky to crack 20mpg in rural conditions.

I remember seeing a little Ford 8N (smallish 1950s farm tractor) in Mother Earth News years ago that had some kind of wood gasifier for fuel, then theres the whole bio-diesel thing most people don't know that the diesel engine was originally developed with farmers in mind so they could grow their own fuel source. There are a lot of options out there but you've got to put up with inconvieniece and expense. Its too bad the mass consumer market is so monolithic but that can change.

01-09-2002, 08:36 AM	#1
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Hydrogen Fuel Cells "The Bush administration is walking away from a $1.5 billion eight- year government-subsidized project to develop high-mileage gasoline- fueled vehicles. Instead it is throwing its support behind a plan that the Energy Department and the auto industry have devised to develop hydrogen-based fuel cells to power the cars of the future, administration and industry officials said yesterday. " http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/09/bu...odaysheadlines Its obvious that our reliance on foreign oil is a problem, however is this realistic or just avoidance behavior.

01-10-2002, 08:23 AM	#15
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Syc, Shouldn't your Metro be doing better than that, mileage wise? I had a '86 VW Jetta years ago that was over 40mpg on the highway. If parts for the darn thing were not so expensive, I'd still be running it. You know those gigantic Cummins Diesel Dodge pickups? My buddies getting 23mpg highway with his. He went synthetic with all his fluids (um vehicle lubricants not bodily) but I don't think he's done anything else, although he's a capable mechanic. On the other hand, my little Nissan 4x4 is lucky to crack 20mpg in rural conditions. I remember seeing a little Ford 8N (smallish 1950s farm tractor) in Mother Earth News years ago that had some kind of wood gasifier for fuel, then theres the whole bio-diesel thing most people don't know that the diesel engine was originally developed with farmers in mind so they could grow their own fuel source. There are a lot of options out there but you've got to put up with inconvieniece and expense. Its too bad the mass consumer market is so monolithic but that can change. Last edited by Griff; 01-10-2002 at 03:31 PM.

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01-09-2002, 10:01 AM	#2
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Bush may not care about the environment but he's not stupid. He probably realizes that if we don't lessen our dependence on oil then we're probably going to be bombed one day.

01-09-2002, 10:28 AM	#3
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	We are on the way already. In 1990 fuel costs were 8% of the GNP, now they're 3%. I don't have any source or context for this statement as I heard it in passing. Also Russian and Mexican sources are gearing up which will lessen the importance of the Mideast. The truth is that such innovations don't come from government "investments" anyway -- as the article points out, the only two automakers with hybrid vehicles on the market are Honda and Toyota, who didn't have anything to do with earlier "initiatives". The market, as always, is driven by demand and any political changes only confuse the matter. After the last serious oil crunch there were scores of bills in the legislature concerning synthetic fuels and alternative energy, and 20 years later we are still driving internal combusion engines fueled with petroleum. The truth is that a lot of these technologies are just barely out of reach. If gas prices were to double and stay there, you'd see hybrids and fuel cells and hydrogen and natural gas and all sorts of of other things in short order.

01-09-2002, 11:05 AM	#4
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I see it as simple collusion meant to guarantee market dominance for the big three. I wonder what tw thinks?

01-09-2002, 01:03 PM	#7
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Well, for eating up more gas than the rest of us, therefore causing prices to rise further... that's the price you pay. Recession is bad and all, but what happens when we run out of fuel? It WILL happen, and we BETTER have something to carry us. Talk about the instant recession when that hits - no more power. What then? If the prices went up, at least we'd be forced to innovate other solutions.

01-09-2002, 02:34 PM	#8
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	The fact that Chevrolet got rid of the Metro (and Suzuki dumped its sister car, the Swift) saddens me. Now what the hell am I supposed to buy? A Kia? Oh hell no!

01-09-2002, 02:42 PM	#9
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	What'll happen: the synfuels and natural gas and fuel cells and batteries and fuel-efficient cars and bike/Segway lanes and ALL other such alternatives will NATURALLY eke into the market. Because gas prices will rise due to limited supply, making the alternatives slowly viable. By the time petroleum is truly in short supply, the alternatives will then be in place. The futures market will ensure that the price increase of petroleum due to short supply is flattened, so that the economy doesn't have to absorb the effect all at once. Which is, after all, the whole problem: everyone wants to engineer solutions, which they want to implement all at once, massively screwing up the whole market activity which tends to naturally, invisibly solve these kinds of problems by itself.

01-09-2002, 07:32 PM	#12
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Well, after I get my CS degree, i'm definitely gonna look into getting one of those cool hybrid cars. Hell, if i'm gonna spend that much money, I might as well vote with my dollars.

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