3/4/2004: Ashoura 2004

[Shattered Soul]

"If it's unproven it's not religion, it's art. Calling all of this art is the only thing that could redeem it"
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You're contradicting yourself here...if it's unproven it's NOT religion, it's art? Huh?




"Then what is it?"
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It's a looking beyond oneself and, possibly, considering that there may be a first cause and that that first cause may be conscious.

If you create life in a test tube, and then put it out in the environment, but that life never, EVER sees evidence of your existence, and yet somehow begins believing that some sort of consciousness created it, does it make you any less real because they have no concrete PROOF that you exist?



"And I'm not going to kill you for not changing your mind about my beliefs either."
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What's that in re to?

[Clodfobble]

On another note, I think the best correlation so far has been circumcision. In this modern country, can anyone really justify circumcision other than "tradition?"

[poohbearbeth]

Quite disturbing........
I can't believe one would say " they are not crying"
You are putting a knife to your child....That is unspeakable

[Pearcie (AUS)]

Originally posted by Clodfobble
On another note, I think the best correlation so far has been circumcision. In this modern country, can anyone really justify circumcision other than "tradition?"

I'm not the most learned on the subject but there are hygenic benefits to circumcision also.

[poohbearbeth]

circumcision is done for health purposes

[jinx]

"Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision."
- The American Academy of Pediatrics

PEDIATRICS, Volume 103, Number 3, Pages 686-693,
March 1, 1999.

[Torrere]

circumcision is wrong

[lumberjim]

i don;t see a great difference between this and baptism. apart from the blood. and the big scary knives.

people do some fucked up stuff to their bodies and their kids' bodies. chinese folk bind feet, some tribes in africa stretch necks, put plates in their lips, ears and who knows where else. people perform female circumscisions, massive tattoing and scarring.

it freaks you out because you see a bloody child.

[Zenchou]

I appreciate the understanding that you are showing, but that being said, understanding need only go so far. Ashoura is only part of the problem. It's part of a program that teaches that infidels are only so much extra shrapnel.

That is a massive generalization which you offered no proof of. Those kind of statements result from very shallow understandings of cultures and religions which make little or no effort to understand the true meanings. That being said, anyone can put a religion or culture in a bad light, yes, thats right, even Christianity/Judaism/whatever else you please. A broad statement of "they are all taught to kill anyone not of their religion" is hardly convincing.

I disagree. They want to give us a bit more than a smiley.

Another massive generalization which is blaming the radical actions of some people who happen to share the same religion/culture on those people as a whole, rather than the individuals or specific group.




Additionally, I could argue for days about the whole which child or which culture is better issue, but I won't. I didn't quite structure my statement correctly, but that is not the issue here, so I'm not going to start a different discussion. However, I might recommend that you not be so patronizing and tell me to "get out more". If you wish to make a point, do so in a more polite way, it is more effective and maintains the pretense of civility.

Um, swimming is useful, as in not drowning. Scalping yourself isn't. Hell, even the native americans had the sense to do it to the other guy and sell them to a third party for a profit.

So the only measure of worth of an activity is usefulness? That seems incredibly narrow, and would result in a rather boring life in my opinion, if we only did those things we felt were "useful". Not to mention, that rules out much of western religious pratices as well, if you don't think that their religious ideas are "useful" then no other religious ideas are "useful" either.

It's not a question of "use" for me. Instead, it's a question of beliefs. They believe in this strange ritual of cutting their head to show their faith. I think it's ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than many other religious practices.

If there can be shown a provable link between a given culture/group/etc. and past and present attrocities and there appears to be a liklihood of future attrocities then I say "Fire when ready Gridley!" And don't forget the dosimeters and the marshmellows.

First of all, the issue on whether or not there is a "proveable link" should be FAR from closed from anyone who has "read and gotten out more" (sorry, couldn't resist). Aside from that, however, there are plenty of ways to connect "past and present attrocities" to any government or culture, and very easy to project those images into the future. By your statement, perhaps we should just start shooting everyone just to be safe.

Additionally, it seems depressing to me that once you have found some sort of connection between past and present action, and possible (unless you can somehow see the future, you have no idea what will really happen) that your first inclination is to start shooting. While many people share this opinion with you, I find it disheartening

[Leah]

Hey Pearcie haven't you got much work today??? Me either.
TGIF
:p

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by Torrere
circumcision is wrong

in your opinion

[OnyxCougar]

Being the lazy ass that I am, (and not wanting to surf the muslim/porn central link from work), can anyone find the reason why they feel they have to cut themselves to celebrate?

Is it in a holy book or something?

Thou shalt cut thyself on the head and thy children, yea, even the little child shall be cut. When the blood stoppeth the flow, verily, take thy knife and smack the cut repeatedly while wearing white. Behold! The media shall frenzy!

[Pearcie (AUS)]

Yeah I've got plenty Leah, but like u said TGIF. A good day to relax I reckon. This thread has become way to heavy for Friday tho, I reckon this'll be my last post today. I've got big plans tonight, my sister is coming over for dinner tonight, she's bringing her newborn so after dinner I'm gonna get a big knife and smack him on the head with it til he pisses blood al over the place and then I'm going to cheer and say 'praise the lord!'

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Uh, it's marshmallows.

I stand corrected.

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce

Many indigenous peoples, including Indians of the Americas used blood rituals and scarification as part of their religious ceremonies.

And?

That doesn't make it good, right, or just. And were not talking about them. We're talking about a people who hate us with a white hot heat that is fired by a religiou that requires them to do things that are self destructive as a means to prove their faith.

And I'm just reminded of some video clips I downloaded a good while back that I will make available if I can find them as a case in point.

[Shattered Soul]

"So the only measure of worth of an activity is usefulness? That seems incredibly narrow, and would result in a rather boring life in my opinion, if we only did those things we felt were "useful". .."


Right on, Zenchou. That, I think, is what TS doesn't understand. "Useful" to him, it appears, is what he himself deems so. Anything else is a waste of time, again, because he believes it to be so.