Uckity Uck Uck Uck!

[ZenGum]

It's always the one who doesn't love, or who loves less, who has control in a relationship.

A quote to that effect got a fair bit of air-time here a few years back.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by orthodoc

But why do men love these women? I've listened to a man proudly talk about what a princess - no, a queen, a real queen - his wife was, how demanding and capricious she was, and how he loved, loved, loved her. She made him miserable and he loved her. (She also took a lover and broke his heart, and now he despises women.)

And when a woman is generous and loving toward a man, he stops being loving and behaves as badly as he knows how.

I don't understand. Maybe men and women are supposed to make each other miserable. It's always the one who doesn't love, or who loves less, who has control in a relationship. The whole dynamic seems doomed to failure. Or maybe I'm just Aspie, 'cause I just don't get it.

Originally Posted by ZenGum

A quote to that effect got a fair bit of air-time here a few years back.

first of all, all kinds of men love all kinds of women, and I don't think I can understand all the dynamics. some of them work, some don't some start working and then stop working, etc, etc. Some people *prefer* a power imbalance. Whatevah.

HOWever.

This:

It's always the one who doesn't love, or who loves less, who has control in a relationship.

I used to believe it. I don't believe it now. I think my previous belief, my previous understanding was flawed. What is controlled? The other person? The relationship? I don't think either of those things are possible--no, they're possible, but only with the complicity of the other partner.

As the "controller", I can only control my partner with her collusion. As the "controlled", same thing. And I believe it's just as voluntary to be in a relationship that is "controlled". I no longer believe that the one who loves less "has control".

I now focus on controlling myself, and that's a fucking handful from day to day.

...

And when a woman is generous and loving toward a man, he stops being loving and behaves as badly as he knows how.

I don't really know where this is coming from ortho, I know you've been through a metric fuckton of crap, but I will tell you that this is not universally true. Twil is more generous and loving toward me than I've ever known, and I am moved toward better behavior, including (somewhat incredulous) gratitude, frequently affirmed and reaffirmed. Don't despair.

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by BigV

I don't really know where this is coming from ortho, I know you've been through a metric fuckton of crap, but I will tell you that this is not universally true. Twil is more generous and loving toward me than I've ever known, and I am moved toward better behavior, including (somewhat incredulous) gratitude, frequently affirmed and reaffirmed. Don't despair.

It's been my own experience and observation - but maybe my 'n = 1' study is skewed. But I'm glad to hear it's not universally true. What you describe is what I would've taken to be the norm, the expected - that when two people are loving and generous toward each other it inspires an increase of the same behaviors, not a sea change into something out of a horror movie. Or at least into a sad drama.

So, I won't despair. Maybe, when it works between two people, it's easy and there isn't the need for careful game-playing and renegotiating? That would be nice. Because as Zen said, I don't see myself that way.

[limey]

Originally Posted by orthodoc

...when it works between two people ... there isn't the need for careful game-playing and renegotiating ....

This is possible. But it's not easy.