"She", not "he", guys

[BrianR]

Not quite proof positive, but pretty close!

[henry quirk]

UT, as I said 'I await the evidence'...till then: 'he'.

"what if some condition is set up in the mother's womb which sets up the fetus to have feminine tendencies of some sort?"

See below.

#

Brian, I note in the title, 'Gender-Related Disorders'.

I note in the piece:


It has been hypothesized that prenatal DES exposure may also have led to behavioral effects in humans (Meyer-Bahlburg and Erhardt, 1986; Meyer-Bahlburg, et al., 1995). Primary studies exploring possible behavioral and psychiatric effects of prenatal DES exposure in males first appeared in the literature during the 1970s. DES exposure has been associated with increased potential for major depressive disorders and other psychiatric effects in males (Katz, et al., 1987; Meyer-Bahlburg et al., 1985; Pillard et al., 1993; Saunders, 1988; Vessey et al., 1983). Recent discussions of potential psychiatric effects of prenatal DES exposure, including gender-related effects and schizophrenia, have been presented by Verdoux (2000; 2004) and Boog (2004). Verdoux summarizes the research on DES in the psychiatric literature this way:

Sparse findings suggest that exposure to xenoestrogens such as diethylstilbestrol may be a risk factor for psychiatric disorders, mediated by a possible deleterious impact of the substances on foetal neurodevelopment, but this hypothesis is speculative owing to the small number of studies and their methodological limitations (Verdoux, 2004).

...and...

•Among the most significant findings from this study is the high prevalence of individuals with confirmed or strongly suspected prenatal DES exposure who self-identify as male-to-female transsexual or transgender, and individuals who have reported experiencing difficulties with gender dysphoria.
In this study, more than 150 individuals with confirmed or suspected prenatal DES exposure reported moderate to severe feelings of gender dysphoria across the lifespan. For most, these feelings had apparently been present since early childhood. The prevalence of a significant number of self-identified male-to-female transsexuals and transgendered individuals as well as some individuals who identify as intersex, androgynous, gay or bisexual males has inspired fresh investigation of historic theories about a possible biological/endocrine basis for psychosexual development in humans, including sexual orientation, core gender identity, and sexual identity (Benjamin, 1973; Cohen-Kettenis and Gooren, 1999; Diamond, 1965, 1996; Michel et al, 2001; Swaab, 2004).


Let's assume for the moment Ibram is one of the individuals affected in the womb by xenoestrogens. To my thinking this simply means Ibram is a boy with a disorder, not a member of a 'third sex'.

Nice try though...

For a 'third sex' to have the same the weight as 'male' and female' it must be natural, not the result of disorder or exposure to chemicals (natural or artificial introduced abnormally to the womb).

And, before anyone reacts badly: no, I in no way suggest the disordered boy should be 'fixed'. Again: I don't care how he live or self-defines...I simply choose not participate in that self-definition.

[John Sellers]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

If I -- knowing Ibram is male -- pretend he's a 'she' then I lie (to myself) and in the lie, I diminish myself, to myself.

Well, if that's how you see it, then that's yer deal, but IMO, you're seriously messed up in the head.

Originally Posted by henry quirk

If I demand to be called 'Lord God Quirk', will you comply?

Again,

[henry quirk]

UT: your point?

#

Lord God Quirk: nice name...

#

Ali, John: not worth responding to.

[henry quirk]

If he has a penis, is genetically male, then -- despite *self-definition -- he is 'he'.

Yes?

No?

Opinions?

[BigV]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

snip--

Ali, John: not worth responding to.

Perhaps. But because it is not worth it to you does not make them wrong.

#

Just because you consider something "absurd", that does not make it wrong. You can be the author of your own reality; so can Ibram. Your definitions lose potency the farther you extend them from yourself. Especially in this case, when you try to project them onto other who have greater, dare I say, more intimate knowledge of what they're talking about.

[Stormieweather]

Nah...I think it's just simple courtesy.

If HQ wants to be called Lord God Quirk, it is absolutely no skin off my back to call him this.

If Ibram wants to be called Erica or she, it harms me not a bit to comply.

In both cases, doing as requested is courteous and polite. I've hurt no one by going along with the program. I'm intelligent enough to know that HQ is not MY Lord God, although maybe he's someone elses? I am aware that Ibram has the biological organs of a male, but if this is not what she feels defines her gender, who am I to argue?

I think it's terribly arrogant to assume that the only "definitions" that matter are the ones we personally know and use.

[henry quirk]

"Nah...I think it's just simple courtesy.'

I disagree, but, as you like.



#

"I think it's terribly arrogant to assume that the only "definitions" that matter are the ones we personally know and use."

And I believe it arrogant to twist descriptors into meaning 'nothing'.

*shrug*

But, as you like.

[Lord God Quirk]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

Nah...I think it's just simple courtesy.

If HQ wants to be called Lord God Quirk, it is absolutely no skin off my back to call him this.

Can I call you Betty?

[Stormieweather]

Originally Posted by Lord God Quirk

Can I call you Betty?

As you like...

[Undertoad]

UT, as I said 'I await the evidence'...till then: 'he'.

So you said. Inherent in that statement is that you don't know whether evidence was been or will be brought.

Psychology has forever labeled certain traits "disorder", only to learn later that they were only considered disorder because of the cultural norms of the day.

Such was homosexuality, which was considered to be due to uncorrected personality traits* up to about three decades ago.

And gays, as a result, were (and are) treated so incredibly poorly. Well, we didn't know.







*by Robyn Hitchcock

[Rhianne]

I wanted to comment but don't really feel like bringing my own uncorrected personality traits into the discussion so I'll just say that I *heart* Robyn Hitchcock and leave.

[footfootfoot]

If you'll be my bodyguard. I can be your long lost pal. I can call you Betty And Betty when you call me. You can call me Al.

[infinite monkey]

Here's something I've been thinking of lately.

So let's say I announce to my african-american cow orkers that I 'feel' black and therefore I would like to be considered black. I want to fill out forms and check 'african-american.' I've never felt white (probably 'cause I'm such a good dancer) and I don't want to BE white. I want to be more susceptible to sickle cell anemia. I want to be counted in the 'black vote' and I want them all to acknowledge that YES, I am black.

They'd laugh me right out of the office. What the fuck do you know about being black? You were raised in a white household and you went to an almost all white school out in the boondocks. You went to a predominately white church. We love that you want to be black but YOU ARE NOT.

So I argue that I perceive myself as black, and if they don't start addressing me as "sistah" I'm going to get very angry. How dare they tell me I'm not black, just because they've actually experienced what it is to be black in this society?

[henry quirk]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Exactly!