"She", not "he", guys

[DanaC]

Y'know, I was thinking about this thread when I went to bed last night. And it struck me that in fact it is academic. Because, unless my memory is more fucked up than I realise, Ibs never said she was a girl trapped in a boy's body. What Ibs actually said was that the CIS Male identity simply doesn't fit. A female identity also doesn't entirely fit. Ibs didn't want us to call her a 'she' at first. her preferred pronoun was in fact 'they'.

Most of us, myself included, balked at the idea of using 'they' and 'their' when referring to a named individual because it jars grammatically. 'She' and 'her' was the compromise position. Neither 'he' nor 'she' is entirely accurate, but of the two, 'she' is closest.

I may be misremembering this, but that's how I read it. Ibs is exploring her femininity, not claiming to be female.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Y'know, I was thinking about this thread when I went to bed last night. And it struck me that in fact it is academic. Because, unless my memory is more fucked up than I realise, Ibs never said she was a girl trapped in a boy's body. What Ibs actually said was that the CIS Male identity simply doesn't fit. A female identity also doesn't entirely fit. Ibs didn't want us to call her a 'she' at first. her preferred pronoun was in fact 'they'.

Most of us, myself included, balked at the idea of using 'they' and 'their' when referring to a named individual because it jars grammatically. 'She' and 'her' was the compromise position. Neither 'he' nor 'she' is entirely accurate, but of the two, 'she' is closest.

I may be misremembering this, but that's how I read it. Ibs is exploring her femininity, not claiming to be female.

yes&no. in actuality I reject the notion of binary gender entirely, and i am who i am. when you put the broken sexist blinders back on and "see gender" again, after that, i fall very much on the feminine side. Since I don't pass very well, and since it quite triggers my dysphoria on the matter to be reminded of that by constantly being called "sir" or "him", I'm pushing towards the other extreme stylistically until it no longer happens, until I "pass", for my own sake. I agree with Kate Bornstein that it's entirely possible to live a non-gendered life, when the haters and the bigots and the willfully ignorant get out of the way. but that isn't where I am right now. Right now I ask to be treated as a woman, with pronouns to match. some people just aren't very good at respect and decency is all. and some are just bigots.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

There are many places in the world where people go their whole lives not seeing people of a different colour. In such a place a child is unlikely to consider their skin colour in any deeper terms than the shape of their foot, the colour of their hair, or the length of their fingers. It is simply a physical feature. They'd be aware of it. But not as an important issue of identity. Race likewise only becomes an important component of identity when set against other races.

It is really not the same thing as waking up one morning and thinking one is black when one is in fact white.

No one said they were the same, but there are similarities and I believe the analogy warranted discussion.
For example - lets take your above scenario and introduce a person of a different color into that place.
Now what happens? How do you think that would impact/affect both "sides"?

[DanaC]

yeah. Ok I get that. The rejection of polarised gender was what i was trying to get at but failing :p

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Ibby

Right now I ask to be treated as a woman, with pronouns to match. some people just aren't very good at respect and decency is all. and some are just bigots.

You missed the LARGEST group - those of us who aren't used to referring to you as a she when we've basically been condition over years to refer to you as a he.

Many of us, I assume, mean no disrespect to you and do not fall into any of those groups you've defined.

[Ibby]

As I said before, i completely respect that it's hard to get used to. I'm sure it's going to take my parents years to get to that point.
there's a big difference between making a pronoun mistake and willfully deciding not to even try and get it right.
Henry is clearly the latter. IM appears to be going down that path in this thread and others.
other people are hit and miss. i dont hold it against someone if they get it wrong occasionally, but when they get it consistently wrong, even after a polite correction, it's another matter.
I'm not going around assuming that every "he" i get comes from a place of malice. its the ones that DO come from that place i have a problem with.

[sexobon]

So, if I disagree with you about something and I say "That Ibby, she's just a dumb cuntless.", we're cool right?

[Ibby]

sounds good to me!

[DanaC]

Someone needs a cunt punt.

[jimhelm]

Originally Posted by jimhelm

Ib,
if being referred to as a she is really important, you might consider changing to a feminine login name.

.

Originally Posted by Ibby

yes&no. in actuality I reject the notion of binary gender entirely,

Well, how about Pat or Terry or maybe Chris or Jo/e?

or Tits Magee?

[classicman]

From a purely technical stand, I think Henry is correct.

Thankfully that is not the ONLY definition available.

[DanaC]

Even from a purely technical stand, I think Henry is at best partially correct. There's plenty of evidence to suggest a genetic component to gender and sexuality, as well as a chromosomal component to gender dysmorphia.

[DanaC]

And I still don't understand wtf he cares enough to start a whole thread about it, and when it becomes apparent that his opinion is causing offence and hurt he wouldn't just step away and leave the kid to be who she wants to be without being a total twat about it.

Whether his argument is technically valid or not (I happen to think not) he isn't arguing in a vacuum. He's talking about a real person here, with feelings that can be hurt.

You mentioned earlier Classic that this was a good opportunity to discuss and learn. Had this thread come from a kind place then I'd agree. But it manifestly comes from an unkind place.

He's a fucking bully. He's couching it in unemotional, logical argument but the whole purpose of this thread imo was to cause hurt to Ibby. The timing of it alone suggests that. It was in response to an argument in another thread where henry and others felt Ibbs wasn't practising what she preached about tolerance, with Klyde. This thread was started in the context of teaching Ibs a lesson and making her uncomfortable.

Bullying fuck.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

He's a fucking bully...whole purpose ...cause hurt... ...response to an argument ...Ibbs ... tolerance, ... teaching a lesson ... uncomfortable.
Bullying fuck.

I thought we covered all that already.
We were drifting away and turning THAT shit-storm into a positive open discussion.
thanks for dragging it back up & stirring the shit again.

[DanaC]

Right because Henry's last submission wasn't attacking Ibby at an identity level.

I got angry all over again.