Hand wringing about Jill leaving.

[DanaC]

Actually I notice it with Spexx as well. And with Tw.

I am not for one moment suggesting that there is no nastiness from leftwing posters, or that the right has a monopoly on this shit. But the majority of people who've been 'driven away' by the nasty political fights over the last year or so have been left-leaning.

You're right though, that it isn't just a matter of left v right. This is about our cultural approach to politics in our community. I am equally disturbed by leftwing posters launching personal attacks and treating their opponents with contempt as I am when it happens the other way around. I see more of it from the right than from the left.

Now, you can suggest that this is because I am leftwing and therefore sympathise with the leftwing posters' views: but I do not sympathise with personal attacks and disrespect, and I think I am rational and open enough to spot the difference between a well-crafted response and a shitty attack regardless of which end of the political spectrum it is coming from. And, in that light, i tell you I see more of that from the right against the left than the other way around.

Of course that might just be a matter of numbers. There seem to be more right-leaning, or centre-right posters overall than left-leaning or centre left posters in this community. Consequently if a similar proportion of each are dickheads, then there will be an imbalance to the right.



[eta] Just for clarity: I raised the left-right aspect of this because Monster asked if I'd have responded the same way had Jill been on the other side of the divide. My view overall is that this is a wider problem than just a left-right spat. This is about how we do politics in the Celllar. It's about people coming here expecting rational discussion and instead facing unpleasant attacks.

[ZenGum]

I second everything that Dana has said in this thread.

[Griff]

I cross borders quite a bit but am probably center-right. I consider UG to be a cartoon, but Merc is a mean bastard here. IM is much meaner than Spexx, but the left crowd tends to dog-pack, rotating because Merc/UG are always looking for a fight and normal people tire of being like that. I feel bad that we can't discuss politics here anymore, but I did my best to rid us of Merc before to no avail. So we will have a watered down cellar... er leaky basement er something.

[morethanpretty]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

I second everything that Dana has said in this thread.

I second this second of everything Dana said.

[infinite monkey]

Mean old monkey.

[Griff]

We all take our turn at it.

[Pico and ME]

Originally Posted by morethanpretty

I second this second of everything Dana said.

I second this second of the first second.

I don't get why we're supposed to feel like hand-wringing wussies if we express that we think Jill got run out on a proverbial rail. Sure, she could have done things differently. So could you. And you. And me. I can still think we might have lost a unique voice.

And this too.

[sexobon]

Anyone else for sloppy seconds?

[Big Sarge]

I'm sorry to see her go too. Political discussion is always perilous both online and in person.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Just to be absolutely clear: though I like Jill, I don't really know her that well. I'm not oh so upset that she isn't here. I'm annoyed at the way this keeps happening. She isn't the first and she won't be the last. Reasonable people attempting to have a robust political discussion with people of varying opinions end up being subjected to personal attacks and trying to argue rationally with people who are being irrational.

That doesn't make for a fun debate.

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

I have lots to say about politics, but I won't say it here. I've observed that there is no possibility whatsoever of a reasonable political debate on these forums.

there isn't much debate going on in the Politics forum. And that's a goddamn shame. It should be renamed "Argument Clinic" or "Shouting".

I see debate as a contest of ideas, using words and ears and eyes. Also, for competitve debates where the only idea is to win we have the kinds of debaters for that but no impartial judges. but that kind of debating is to my mind NOT what the Politics forum is for, certainly not what I want in the politics forum. I want to be informed, perhaps to be persuaded. I want to learn. And that means an open mind, but there isn't much of that on display. Very little express acknowledgment that the "other side" has much valid to offer. It seems such an admission is tantamount to a sign of weakness--anathema to the current tone.

It's not just in the cellar. I see and hear it all over the place. It's just as sad there too, and just as useless.

Among my high priorities, what is good for the country ranks right up there. And I *wish* the discussions were 1 -- among people who shared such priorities, and 2 -- that there would be more listening and openmindedness as to the method by which we reach our putatively shared goals.

It's sad and frustrating.

[Undertoad]

Precisely, Biggie;

I wonder whether there is some way a better debate can actually be facilitated. Maybe with an official debate moderator, who only lets posts through if they contain no attack.

Proposal of debate agreed to beforehand

Posts limited to 500 words

Onlookers can flag a fallacious argument

A debater can tap out and be replaced by another of his/her choosing

[Aliantha]

What about if you just use the 'report abuse' feature', and if someone gets 3 or 5 or 7 or whatever number of posts for the same post, they get a 24 hour ban?

I think this is a good idea because for one thing, it means it's not left up to just one person to decide if the post is bad or not, but also, if the discussion is that heated, perhaps the poster could benefit from a short break to collect their thoughts.

[Undertoad]

That's not really how the feature works though. That leaves it to moderators, which is not really what the mods are for.

[Aliantha]

Do you think it's worth asking them what they think about the idea? Or even other members?

I've been thinking about this idea for a while, so it's not just off the top of my head.

[Trilby]

I wonder how well this thread would've gone over if I had started it and named it, oh, let's say, Hand Wringing over Merc. Or Ali. Or whomever.

Bet there'd be a lot of slapping me down for having the audacity to even THINK of starting such a thread.