Bully-induced Suicide

[tw]

Originally Posted by Datalyss

but I'd like to know your thoughts on kids committing suicide as a result of being bullied.

The problem will always be a lack of hard facts. For example, a recent discuss by some of the world's best experts in the brain (on Charlie Rose) noted something contrary to popular belief. Depression does not cause suicide. If true, then any discussion will have serious problems. Until you can say why people commit suicide, then no useful discussion can result. Only popular myths get promoted.

She was bullied. Therefore she committed suicide? Why? Where are the hard facts that associate what mental state with suicide.

We know bullying can only exist when management - teachers, administrators, guidance counselors - are not doing their job. But what is the hard fact that connects that overt mismanagement with suicide? To answer that, one must first define why a person would commit suicide. That means trashing widely believed hearsay myths and wild speculation.

Why does depression not lead to suicide? I cannot say. He did not provide the details.

[Datalyss]

Originally Posted by Flint

I'm for it.

INAPPROPRIATE!

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It's nature's way of weeding out the weak, thinning the herd, feeding the predators & scavengers, nourishing the soil, and conserving oxygen.

This is not the way I intended this thread to go.

Originally Posted by tw

We know bullying can only exist when management - teachers, administrators, guidance counselors - are not doing their job.

Well, they can't do their jobs if the kids don't tell them what's happening. And these days, the bullies can come right into the homes of the people they are bullying, through the internet. There is now no reprieve, no safe zone. It is bullying 24/7. I can't even begin to imagine that. When I was bullied in school, I had a safe zone in my house. No matter how bad the bullying was, I was secure in the knowledge that while at home I didn't have to deal with them, or their BS. Kids today don't have that luxury anymore.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally Posted by tw

We know bullying can only exist when management - teachers, administrators, guidance counselors - are not doing their job.

I think you've grossly underestimated the capacity of kids to be cruel to each other in ways that fly completely under the radar.

Bullying exists everywhere, in any social grouping of sufficient size, regardless of the quality of the "management".

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Flint

I'm for it.

You're not alone.

Originally Posted by Kansas City Star

[school board member] McCance's alleged posting was in response to a Facebook campaign that asked supporters to wear purple last Wednesday to show solidarity after several gay and lesbian youths killed themselves, reportedly because of bullying.

"Seriously they want me to wear purple because five queers killed themselves," McCance allegedly wrote. "The only way im wearin it for them is if they all commit suicide. I cant believe the people of this world have gotten this stupid. We are honoring the fact that they sinned and killed thereselves because of their sin."

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Datalyss

This is not the way I intended this thread to go.

Funny how that works.

Well, they can't do their jobs if the kids don't tell them what's happening. And these days, the bullies can come right into the homes of the people they are bullying, through the internet. There is now no reprieve, no safe zone. It is bullying 24/7. I can't even begin to imagine that. When I was bullied in school, I had a safe zone in my house. No matter how bad the bullying was, I was secure in the knowledge that while at home I didn't have to deal with them, or their BS. Kids today don't have that luxury anymore.

Yes they do, it's called a power button. It gives them the power to make it stop.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Datalyss

Well, they can't do their jobs if the kids don't tell them what's happening. And these days, the bullies can come right into the homes of the people they are bullying, through the internet. There is now no reprieve, no safe zone. It is bullying 24/7.

You are assuming reactive management - also called 'failure is acceptable'. Management's job is to be pro-active. If administrators, et al do not address a problem before hand, then the problem escalates. For example, where was the program that said what kids could do and who they could go to if bullying occurred? And where was the program that identifies bullying?

We teach kids to wash their hands and to use toilet paper before they get sick and die. Same proactive principles apply to bullying. As I have said so many hundreds of times, management's job is about attitude and knowledge. It is not about stopping failures after damage has been done. If failures happen, blame starts with management that failed to do their job. Teach the necessary concepts and provide the necessary channels.

Well, we taught about drunk driving and death. And so death rates went down. Apparently there is some connection between bullying and death. That means the solution starts with where mistakes started - top management. A solution always starts with attitude and knowledge. Management's job is to provide both. Only then does peer pressure work. No attitude and knowledge; then no peer pressure to further eliminate the problem.

[Datalyss]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Yes they do, it's called a power button. It gives them the power to make it stop.

Originally Posted by tw

You are assuming reactive management - also called 'failure is acceptable'. Management's job is to be pro-active. If administrators, et al do not address a problem before hand, then the problem escalates. For example, where was the program that said what kids could do and who they could go to if bullying occurred? And where was the program that identifies bullying?

We teach kids to wash their hands and to use toilet paper before they get sick and die. Same proactive principles apply to bullying. As I have said so many hundreds of times, management's job is about attitude and knowledge. It is not about stopping failures after damage has been done. If failures happen, blame starts with management that failed to do their job. Teach the necessary concepts and provide the necessary channels.

Well, we taught about drunk driving and death. And so death rates went down. Apparently there is some connection between bullying and death. That means the solution starts with where mistakes started - top management. A solution always starts with attitude and knowledge. Management's job is to provide both. Only then does peer pressure work. No attitude and knowledge; then no peer pressure to further eliminate the problem.

You both make good points, but Bruce, I think your solution to cyber-bullying is a bit unrealistic since some kids feel the need to keep defending themselves via email, IM, texting, etc.

[Flint]

This thread was doomed when you started it with no input and expected it to magically develop some kind of content.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Datalyss

You both make good points, but Bruce, I think your solution to cyber-bullying is a bit unrealistic since some kids feel the need to keep defending themselves via email, IM, texting, etc.

Then they lose. Part of tw's plan should be to clue them in to that.

[BrianR]

Suicide comes from many things. Bullying is only one of them.

I was bullied in middle and high school. Only in mine, understand. I had no problem making friends and even dating in, say, Haverford.

But my (two) suicide episodes were not related to that at all. Nor to depression, according to the therapist who talked me down and the psychiatrist who diagnosed the underlying problem, although the therapist had a pretty good idea from talking to me. It just wasn't her specialty and she wanted to be certain.

I dealt with my bullies with horribly mean practical jokes.

Brian

[xoxoxoBruce]

But Brian, she took your fucking dog, man, she took your fucking dog. That would make me homicidal.

[BrianR]

That is NOT what I am referring to.

[tw]

Originally Posted by BrianR

That is NOT what I am referring to.

Your post comes closest to answering my earlier questions. What causes suicide? And one step farther. What are relevant symptoms that she would diagnose from? Unfortunately, relevant details applicable to this discussion are not provided.

[BrianR]

I did not provide the necessary details because I do not feel comfortable discussing this in public. It is still a painful subject for me and although eventually I will share the basics, the details shall remain private.

I can give generalities though. There was an overwhelming feeling of hopelessness and a "helpless in the tide" sensation where my life was spinning out of control and everything I had worked for was crashing down. One thought randomly led to another and finally suicide was the only way to stop the emotional pain. Or so I thought. Luckily I came to enough of my shattered senses to call for help.

Once a diagnosis was reached, and I had been educated enough to deal with things on my own, I rebuilt my life to what it is now. The initial problem is still there but I am in therapy and am working it out. Medication will be started very soon now. There is the possibility of surgery years from now if the meds do not alleviate the issue sufficiently. Time will tell.

As for the reasons for suicide, they are varied and all in the mind of the victim. There are few commonalities and most do not have a medical basis, unlike MY issue. No one really knows what a self-destructive person is thinking, even that person. Many attempted suicides are a disguised cry for help. Successful suicides are not.

We can never quite understand the underlying problems because the few who survive a serious attempt tend to lie about their reasoning or perhaps they don't understand it either. The bullied teens in the original topic may have had other problems that never came to light. Or perhaps they were covered up after the fact. Yes, that happens if the reasons embarrass the survivors. As an example, if the child of a prominent politician or other public figure kills themselves because they are homosexual, that fact may never see the light of day and the reports simply state the bland, unsupported facts of the death and not the underlying cause.

All may not be what it appears.

Brian

[tw]

Originally Posted by BrianR

I can give generalities though. There was an overwhelming feeling of hopelessness and a "helpless in the tide" sensation where my life was spinning out of control and everything I had worked for was crashing down. One thought randomly led to another and finally suicide was the only way to stop the emotional pain. Or so I thought. Luckily I came to enough of my shattered senses to call for help.

So many questions. For example, how does this vary from one suffering from depression? What does a therapist see that can tell the difference? Fpr example, can the Beck depression scale identify that difference?

Is it at all possible for the victim (once properly informed) to appreciate or recognize these differences from inside himself? Or are there tests (some kind of benchmark) a victim can perform to learn that they need to seek help?
(Where is wolf?)