Immigration Enforcement Un-American?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Hardly insignificant.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by DanaC

The reason those people can't get the care they get, is not because illegal immigrants have taken the care they should have had. It doesn't have to be either or. My God, the damage that has been done to your economy and to your families by a handful of glorified robber barons and yet billions can be found to patch up the wounds they left. You could let everybody in who wanted to come in and you'd probably do less damage to your economy and ramp up the national debt considerably less than the bankers have.

Illegal immigrants are an easy target for anger. But as individuals what they've done is insignificant.

I agree about the robber barons. Trust me, I have been raging about that issue for years. However, the argument that illegal immigrants cost taxpayers many billions of dollars every year is valid, and the fact that they send billions to Mexico every year makes it an even bigger slap in the face. The laws need to be enforced. As individuals the damage may not be all that significant, but as a whole, it is enormous.

http://geeks.pirillo.com/forum/topic...Comment1472397
http://www.cairco.org/econ/econ.html
https://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejo...9741669_2.html

[TheMercenary]

Under Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code, "Improper Entry by Alien," any citizen of any country other than the United States who:

Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or

Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or

Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;
has committed a federal crime.

[lookout123]

My point is the trial should be pretty damn short. It should have exactly one question to answer. Do you or do you not have legal authorization to be in the US? If the answer is no, get out. I don't care about kids, wives, cousins, or jobs. Those wouldn't have been an issue if you hadn't broken the law in the first place. Get out.

Criminal trials are different in that they should be tried just as anyone else and be found guilty or innocent of the charges the same as anyone else. If they are innocent they still need to get out. If they are guilty they need to serve their sentence and then get out.

[DanaC]

What can counsel do here? It's not like even the smoothest lawyer can convince a judge the illegal in custody wasn't in the US... which happens to be the violation in question.

Unless they can be proved to have a case for asylum.


[eta] we engage in much the same behaviour over here towards failed asylum seekers. Worse probably. Given how incredibly easy it is to 'fail' an asylum application that means there are likely to be people who've fled from the vilest persecution and violence being dragged from their hostels in the early hours of the morning and shoved on a plane to their (categorised 'safe') country of origin. A recent example was a man who was sent back to Afghanistan wherupon he was brutally killed by the Taleban (the people he'd been fleeing from). I know of several people who've been forcibly returned to Zimbabwe, Republic of Congo, Iraq. Several have 'disappeared' in their country, others are known to have been killed. I know of torture victims, bodies criss crossed with damage whose applications have been refused and their torture disbelieved. A recent investigation into the immigration system characterised it as operating a 'culture of disbelief'. This is how a 16 year old boy becomes recatergorised as 26 (there's a form they fill in where they assign age if no proof of birthdate can be provided. My mum's dealt with several such cases) and then held in an adult detention centre; or how an 8 year old boy alone in the country could be left without assistance or legal counsel and then have his case dismissed for a 'lack of credibility'.

I'm not sure if they actually brought it in yet, but there was talk recently of a change in the law to allow lone children to be deported to their country of origin. A fucking Labour government. Thatcher wouldn't have dared.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Unless they can be proved to have a case for asylum.

That would be an acception. But given the state of war on the other side of El Paso it might be hard to prove they were not fleeing the conflict. But then again it would be an easy excuse.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Unless they can be proved to have a case for asylum.

Bullshit. Go through the legal process or get out. I don't care why you came illegally, only that you did come illegally. The cop doesn't care too much about my reason for running 80 in a 35 speed zone.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Bullshit. Go through the legal process or get out. I don't care why you came illegally, only that you did come illegally. The cop doesn't care too much about my reason for running 80 in a 35 speed zone.

Legal process isn't always an option for people who are fleeing persecution. Added to that some may have a very understandable fear (terror) of authority, leading them to try slipping under the radar.


[eta] and if you had a pregnant wife in the back going into labour, he may not be a bastard about it.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Legal process isn't always an option for people who are fleeing persecution. Added to that some may have a very understandable fear (terror) of authority, leading them to try slipping under the radar.

There is a process by which people can seek protection and legal immigration in those cases. By breaking the law and entering illegally they pretty much negate that process and diminish their chances.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Legal process isn't always an option for people who are fleeing persecution. Added to that some may have a very understandable fear (terror) of authority, leading them to try slipping under the radar.


[eta] and if you had a pregnant wife in the back going into labour, he may not be a bastard about it.

If he gives me treatment outside of his guidelines then he isn't doing his job however beneficial it may be for me.

Again, I don't care about the why someone broke the law, only that they did.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Bullshit. Go through the legal process or get out. I don't care why you came illegally, only that you did come illegally. The cop doesn't care too much about my reason for running 80 in a 35 speed zone.

They would if another car is behind me shooting shotgun shells at my car. But for the sake of the example, the law can't always say that his reason for illegal entry is just, whether we think it is or not.

If our legal system was built on morality, we would of course allow everyone into the country that came from a tougher background but it isn't and for good reason. A moral legal system cannot exist and even if it could it would be the most hypocritical system in existence. No matter what happens in this situation, someone is going to be fucked and there is no way around that. The question is just who will get fucked over and how bad.

For the most part, laws should be made on what is practical and what works best in the interests of the country (yes that it is still completely subjective), even if that means openly screwing a group over. A very large amount of illegal immigrants are not bad people even with the label of criminals but there is nothing that can be done to solve the problem, so it will continue.

If someone came in illegally, it must be enforced. Throwing morality into the matter will only overly complicate the situation to the point of absurdity. If you disagree with the law, work to get it changed.

[lookout123]

A very large amount of illegal immigrants are not bad people

Most of them are good people who weighed the risk/reward scenario and decided the risk was low enough. good people/bad people isn't the issue, playing by the rules is.(they're a hell of a lot of fun to play soccer with too)

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

If someone came in illegally, it must be enforced. Throwing morality into the matter will only overly complicate the situation to the point of absurdity. If you disagree with the law, work to get it changed.

...till then enforce it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Seems like an awful waste of money to deport perfectly good bio-diesel material.

A recent Associated Press study and story examines the issue of "immigrants facing detention and having few rights."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...ns_few_rights/