What do you hear when people say freedom?

[bluecuracao]

When MLK says it, I get a tear in me e'e.

When Team America says it, I giggle.

When Toby Keith says it, I want to punch him in the mouth.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

Depending upon the speaker and context, unfortunately I usually hear "license." You know doing what you want without concern for the consequences.

smart

Originally Posted by lumberjim

FRENCH FRIES

yummy

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

When MLK says it, I get a tear in me e'e.

When Team America says it, I giggle.

When Toby Keith says it, I want to punch him in the mouth.

Well said.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

~snip~

When Toby Keith says it, I want to punch him in the mouth.

:

[Stormieweather]

A lot of people think 'freedom' means free to do what you like unless you violate MY moral code. Then that is just 'wrong' and should be stopped immediately.

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

A lot of people think 'freedom' means free to do what you like unless you violate MY moral code. Then that is just 'wrong' and should be stopped immediately.

Pedophiles are always doing that, thinking they are free to rape children.

My point being, where does one draw the line?

Ah, there's the rub.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Pedophiles are always doing that, thinking they are free to rape children.

My point being, where does one draw the line?

Ah, there's the rub.

I think the line is, as long as you aren't hurting another being (that would include animals, because I believe animals are as important and as sacred as people), then you should be able to do whatever you want. I also think we should not being doing harm to the earth. We should only take what we need.

In other words: harm none, but do what thou will.

When I hear the word freedom coming from a government, I hear: coercion, money, greed, power. Because everyone's definition of freedom is not the same, and other cultures are not the same, how can we define freedom for another?

To me, freedom would be no money, no government, no religion. Just people taking care of one another. Everyone would have everything they need. No one would have control over anyone else. I suppose I am just an anarchist, but at the same a socialist. I believe in the "village" mentality.

[henry quirk]

"I think the line is, as long as you aren't hurting another being (that would include animals, because I believe animals are as important and as sacred as people), then you should be able to do whatever you want."

why are other people sacred?

if joe has what i want, and i successfully take it, then joe loses

if i'm unsuccessful in taking it, then i lose

if i have something joe covets, and joe is successful is taking it, then he wins

if joe is unsuccessful, then i win

as for animals: nuthin' like a thick, juicy, rare, steak to fortify a body

my point: there's no reason not to steal, lie, cheat, or kill another other than pragmatism (and individual preference)

certainly: the great fictions of morality and law -- being fictions -- are next to useless


"I also think we should not being doing harm to the earth. We should only take what we need."

we are fleas on this planet...it'll be 'round long after humans kick off...i say: get now while the getting’s good...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

if joe has what i want, and i successfully take it, then joe loses

No, Joe blows your head off.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

"I think the line is, as long as you aren't hurting another being (that would include animals, because I believe animals are as important and as sacred as people), then you should be able to do whatever you want."

why are other people sacred?

if joe has what i want, and i successfully take it, then joe loses

if i'm unsuccessful in taking it, then i lose

if i have something joe covets, and joe is successful is taking it, then he wins

if joe is unsuccessful, then i win

You are taking something from someone, so that is doing harm.

as for animals: nuthin' like a thick, juicy, rare, steak to fortify a body

Nothing wrong with eating meat, as long as you humanely kill the animal and don't waste anything.

my point: there's no reason not to steal, lie, cheat, or kill another other than pragmatism (and individual preference)

Of course there are reasons not to do those things; there are morals and ethics and decency.

certainly: the great fictions of morality and law -- being fictions -- are next to useless



"I also think we should not being doing harm to the earth. We should only take what we need."

we are fleas on this planet...it'll be 'round long after humans kick off...i say: get now while the getting’s good...

I would say we are more like a virus than fleas.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

When MLK says it, I get a tear in me e'e.

When Team America says it, I giggle.

When Toby Keith says it, I want to punch him in the mouth.

I don't get it. I googled Toby Keith, and I still don't get you. Seems like he'd say the sort of thing any American country-music hat-act musician would. Do you reckon he'd get the cuffs out for you?

Griff, from post #1:

There is often a difference between what people think they're saying and what they are saying.
ex: UG thinks he's saying freedom for everyone. I'd say what people generally hear is submit to my freedom. That is why he and Radar and Dana collide, they all want a version of freedom to reign, but their definitions are incompatible.

Mulling over radar (a/k/a Paul Ireland), I believe him to be temperamentally unsuited to genuine freedom. It is the narcissisist in him that does this -- his cast of mind is to be an absolute ruler. He can pretend for considerable stretches of time to be a libertarian, but that is not where his heart of hearts is. His ideas of what constitute violations of rights seem on closer examination to be mainly offenses to the Ireland ego.

To say that I say "You submit to my freedom" is not to hear what I am saying at all, but instead to hear only what you imagine I'm saying. Clearly not the same thing. Makes me rather indignant, to be sure. I want you free and happy too. That's a point of deep difference between me and radar, who has never found any such desire in his heart, and his posts repeatedly show this.

DanaC has not to my understanding ever expatiated on liberty. She clashes with me out of a belief in socialism, a less free way than libertarianism. Which is not something she bellyfeels.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

DanaC has not to my understanding ever expatiated on liberty. She clashes with me out of a belief in socialism, a less free way than libertarianism. Which is not something she bellyfeels.

I don't grok this.

How do you know what she feels?

[henry quirk]

"You are taking something from someone, so that is doing harm"

and that matters to the sum total of 'zero'

if joe is an enemy of mine (he killed my nephew, fucked my wife, ate my dog, etc.), and i hurt joe, 'harm' him, by stealing from him, this is a concern for me, how?


"Nothing wrong with eating meat, as long as you humanely kill the animal and don't waste anything"

why do i have to be 'humane' in the killing?

define: 'humane'

if i eat what i need and discard viscera and bones, i'm 'wasting', yes?

so what?


"Of course there are reasons not to do those things; there are morals and ethics and decency"

morals, ethics, decency: who establishes the baselines for these?

what 'authority' promotes, safeguards, enforces, these?

why is 'your' morality, ethics, decency superior to mine and why should i abandon mine for yours?


"I would say we are more like a virus than fleas"

more self-loathing from the peanut gallery…*sigh*

-----

ayn rand: a plagiarist...a half-assed philosopher...a hypocrite

try again...