Russian attack on country of Georgia

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

No one wanted Georgia to be admitted to NATO precisely because we are not blind. We knew exactly what would have happened. Georgia would have gone after their break away provinces of South Ossetia, and Abkazia, and expected all their new allies to back them up. We are not that dumb diplomatically. It's been going on since Stalin gave these provinces to Georgia in the early 1900's, intensified in 1991 and carries on today.

The west is big on making Russia out to be the big bad guy in this. They are by no means innocent, neither is Georgia, neither are the South Ossetians. The very nature and way that people think who are born and raised in this part of the world, the way they think about ethnicity is foreign to us in the melting pot of America. Again we are judging the actions of a foreign nation by our own measures and we will come up short, and fail to fully engage out of ignorance.

In my opinion Georgia fucked this one up. We would do the same thing if in Russia's shoes.

The truth is between Pravda and CNN somewhere.

You may be correct on your assessment of Georgia's intentions with NATO membership, but I think that there really would be no obligation on the part of NATO to come to their aid if Georgia was the aggressor, and in this case they may have. All they did was open up a grand opportunity on the part of Russia to do what they have wanted to do for a long time, and that is reverse the bleeding of the break away republics from continuing to defect to the West and the EU. And in the case of Russia, they may also pay a large price for the incursion. Poland quickly agreed to allow a US anti-missile base in Poland. Others may follow suit as well, looking at it as a fast track to get closer to the West and EU and further from the domination and reversal to cold war era of the USSR. We are obviously entering a new cold war. All the more reason to quickly normalize relations with Cuba and cut off a similar move by the Russians in our own back yard.

[BigV]

What is the minimum critical mass for a viable state (excluding Grifftopia, of course)?

Is Georgia large enough to stand alone? South Ossetia? Abkazia? I heard that there are as few as 100,000 native Abkaz's (sp?) remaining. How can that be enough to form a stable state? Especially in the location under consideration here? And under the circumstances you describe, having been "given to" Georgia. Perhaps Ohio is large enough to be a viable independent state. What would the US response be to a (hypothetical) "breakaway" by Ohio?

It's pretty ugly from all directions, I admit.

But our own interests must include a demonstrable effect to being called an "ally", don't you agree?

[aliasyzy]

I don't think people should blame russia for this confict.

It's Mr. Saakashvili who started this war stupidly and recklessly. Maybe he thought sending 2,000 soldiers in iraq would be enough to scare russians to death, or to get US into a pointless war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by aliasyzy

I don't think people should blame russia for this confict.

It's Mr. Saakashvili who started this war stupidly and recklessly. Maybe he thought sending 2,000 soldiers in iraq would be enough to scare russians to death, or to get US into a pointless war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

There is enough blame to go around. Most of the world hardly trusts Russia's positon on anything.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

There is enough blame to go around. Most of the world hardly trusts Russia's positon on anything.

Most of the world hardly trusts the U.S. position on anything, either.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Most of the world hardly trusts the U.S. position on anything, either.

No doubt. That is the point. If you don't trust the US why the hell would you choose to trust the Russian view? The reality is that you have to use NUMEROUS news sources to shape your opinion about anything these days. And the old adage of military intelligence still stands, "The first report is always suspect."

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by aliasyzy

I don't think people should blame russia for this confict.

It's Mr. Saakashvili who started this war stupidly and recklessly. Maybe he thought sending 2,000 soldiers in iraq would be enough to scare russians to death, or to get US into a pointless war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ

Как Вас дела. Как Вас зовут? Откуда Вы?

[aliasyzy]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

Как Вас дела. Как Вас зовут? Откуда Вы?

I'm just an ordinary Chinese. I visit the Cellar to improve my english in a more light-hearted way.

online translation page gave me a hand to understand your post. why did you use russian. You think I'm a russian?
-----------------------------

Joinning anti-missile defence shield may be a dangerous gamble for Poland. I don't see any nessecity in 10-20 years.
It's more and more like a new cold war.

[aliasyzy]

[regular.joe]

I do agree, we do have to demonstrate our ability to be an ally. We don't have to demonstrate our ability to turn a blind eye to regional history and politics, in favor of our own "spin" of how we'd like to see the world. I think this would serve our interests much more. This "spin" smacks of dishonesty and self delusion to me.

I think diplomatically Georgia fucked this up, it puts us, their friend, into a very tough position.

I suppose if it were up to me, I'd put the mailed fist that we have into a velvet glove more often then have been.

What if the "Ohians" had been living in Ohio since before our alphabet was invented by traveling monks?

[BigV]

To answer your last question, the "Ohioans" in question might be described as Chippewa or Delaware or Erie. This has happened. A futuristic example has even entered the language by the Borg "You will be assimilated."

What makes the wheels go round and round is a mutual respect for the rule of law. My read on this is that the SOs disliked the treatment they received at the hands of the Georgians, and hoped (probably in vain, but the grass is always greener, etc etc) to dislike the treatment by the Russians a little less.

If they want independence, they're dreaming. If they want to be Russians, they'll be accommodated [/borg].

[xoxoxoBruce]

Some, but not all, want to be Russians. In fact many do hold Russian citizenship.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by BigV

To answer your last question, the "Ohioans" in question might be described as Chippewa or Delaware or Erie. This has happened. A futuristic example has even entered the language by the Borg "You will be assimilated."

I think some members Lakota tribe in the Midwest did try to declare independence. I don't really know the result of this.


My thoughts on the Georgia-Russia-South Ossetia conflict have been summed up pretty well here. Big conflict of interests that probably can never be solved without big sacrifices by South Ossetia. But that doesn't mean that this is their fault, just that they are the minority in this situation which puts them at a natural disadvantage.

[TheMercenary]

August 14, 2008
South Ossetia: The perfect wrong war

By now, days after Georgian forces stormed the capital of south Ossetia and Russian units counter attacked across the breaking away province and beyond; a devastating war has spread across the Caucasus causing death, destruction and displacement of populations. All wars are terrible -- even the legitimate ones where country, freedom and survival at are at stake. But this war is particularly unnecessary, could have been avoided and above all is wrong; in fact I call it the perfect wrong war.


Unfortunately, when battles are raging with tanks, artillery, bombs and all sort of firepower, it becomes more difficult to see the substantive issues clearly than before the confrontation began. For example, it becomes more pressing to reach a cease fire, provide medical attention, create Red Cross corridors, stop ethnic cleansing, human rights breaches and take care of refugees, than to investigate who began the hostilities, what provoked it, what are the local claims and what international equation has permitted such an onslaught. And to make it more complicated, rushed journalistic reporting -- often biased -- confuses public opinion endlessly. In short, once the bullets fly, media sensationalism explodes and political agendas creep in.


Let's review the battle of arguments in the South Ossetia conflict and try to analyze the essence while keeping an eye on the bigger picture, the one that affects democracies' national security and international efforts against terror forces.

(continues)
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/...fect_wron.html

[Troubleshooter]

All of this is funny, because Bush looked into Putin's eyes and saw the soul of a good man...