Science, Religion, and the Surrounding Confusion.

[Pico and ME]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Well, at the risk of arguing semantics, I disagree. Faith is jumping right in and believing something without any proof that the belief is valid.

There is no faith (as in religion) without serious indocrination....or as I like to say, brain-washing.

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

There is no faith (as in religion) without serious indocrination....or as I like to say, brain-washing.

I must disagree. I can only speak for myself. I am not a Christian, nor do I attend any religious services or formal training and indoctrination. I do have an active spiritual life, and have much in the way of spiritual experience. I am not driven to convince anyone that if they do not have what I have they will rot in any kind of a hell. My experience is what drives any faith I may have in the spiritual. Much like my parents once telling me that if I put my hand on the hot stove it would be burned, I had to have the experience to build the faith that I have today that my hand will indeed be burned on the hot stove. I need not put my hand on the stove anymore, once was enough.

It is my observation that people without faith are people with out experience to build any faith. That's ok, in my way of thinking I could not expect someone without the experience to have any faith, and I don't. How could I?

It would be a mistake though, to believe that my spiritual life detracts and is incompatible with anything I find in the scientific world. I, myself, find no conflict between the two.

[regular.joe]

Troubleshooter,

Faith is not a suspension of the need for an explanation. It really makes no sense to suspend that need. From my point of view, I really don't understand why anyone would need to suspend the need for an explanation. In fact the more I think about what you may be trying to tell us with such statements, the more I think they are just a bit silly.

From my point of view, you have no experience with faith or the spiritual. You are talking about and putting down something you have no experience with, in fact in such conversation you are on the outside looking in. You appear to be as close minded and intolerant as some of the religious people you don't mind insulting. If you came to my job and started putting down and insulting my professional methods, only to find you you lack the experience to make such statements, I'd dismiss you out of hand. Oh, you read an article about some crazy guy in the papers, that's what you know about my job??? Yea, I'd dismiss what you have to say out of hand.

I'll not call you crazy because you don't hear and see what I hear and see, please allow me the same courtesy and tolerance.

[Phage0070]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

I'll not call you crazy because you don't hear and see what I hear and see, please allow me the same courtesy and tolerance.

Who then *would* you call crazy? How about the person who sees phantom clowns which he claims instruct him to perform various nonsensical tasks? Should you extend him courtesy and tolerance to his clown-centric faith or try to help an obviously diseased mind? Does your societal duty to help cease if the damage is not physical?

It is my understanding that our perceptions do not widely differ; you distinguish the world in the same basic manner and precision as I do. The difference is that in your view there are "extra" elements. You claim events happen for a reason or are caused by an entity despite no perceptive indication. You base the validity of concepts or actions solely on events or feelings that occur completely within your own mind.

How then would we distinguish your behavior from that of a crazy person?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

There is no faith (as in religion) without serious indocrination....or as I like to say, brain-washing.

So if your agree it's education, and if you don't it's brain washing.

[Pico and ME]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

So if your agree it's education, and if you don't it's brain washing.

You got me there...