Stupid White Men

[vsp]

Originally posted by Tobiasly
The rest of you, huh? Are you saying nothing changed for you on 9/11? You don't think maybe our security was a little lacking?

Maybe you disagree about how it's being fixed, but surely you don't think everything should have just continued as normal?

I'm saying that for me -- personally -- nothing changed on 9/11.

On 9/10, did I feel that:
(a) there was significant anti-US sentiment around the world,
(b) some of the reasons for that sentiment had justification (from the perspective of those holding those opinions),
(c) our security (at airports, at our borders, at major public places) was visibly lacking,
(d) someone creative could easily catch America sleeping and do something really nasty, and that
(e) America would react very badly to the discovery that it was not in fact forever invulnerable and impregnable?

Yes, I did. And I did not cheer or celebrate when I turned on the radio and found that I was correct on all five counts. The state of the world is nothing new; all that is different is that on 9/11, America took a major hit within its own borders, and (to borrow from the late Douglas Adams) America reeled like it had been mugged in a meadow. I view 9/11 as a symptom of the problems, not as the problem itself.

Are there many things that can be, should have been and still should be fixed? Of course. But I view most of the Bush administration's corrective measures to be useless at best, and dramatically counterproductive at worst.

Unlike many, I don't view Muslims in general with any more suspicion than I did on 9/10 (that is to say, none). I don't view any countries in the Middle East as "the enemy," because I view the average citizens in those countries as having about as much control over the acts of their leaders as average Americans have over theirs (that is to say, none). I don't fly... but I didn't fly before 9/11, either, and not for terror-related reasons (more because I'm a chickenshit who's admittedly superstitious about plane crashes, regardless of the actual ratio of crashes to safe flights).

From a direct, personal standpoint, the ONLY difference in my everyday life is that I get frisked by an electronic wand before I go into the Spectrum to watch Phantoms games. (And if I was a terrorist, a minor-league hockey game would be MY first choice of target.)

Of course, I'm a suburban white boy who makes a comfortable living -- not someone of vaguely Arabic appearance, or someone with a French background or surname, or someone who's received death threats for publically opposing the Iraq war, or someone penned into a "First Amendment Zone" a mile away from the person they're protesting, or someone sitting in a cell at Gitmo without recourse or representation, or someone related to anyone who was in the WTC or the Pentagon or any of the four flights that crashed.

For them, things have changed... which is a shame.

[xoxoxoBruce]

For them, things have changed.

And they've changed for you also, like it or not. Much more than being wanded at a phantoms game. Your perspective of the world and our countries place in it may not have changed but you are not an island (to coin a phrase) and lots of changes are going on that will affect you. I'll wager much more than you can forsee.

[Undertoad]

I don't know if this is what vsp is referring to, but sometimes in history there are more severe crises that have to be dealt with that really do cause permanent and big changes. In The Fourth Turning they point to the Revolution, the Civil War, and the depression/WW2 as the country's defining crises.

They also say we're about due for another. Their argument is that history is very cyclical and driven by generational aspects that repeat again and again.

Next one is supposed to be in 2005, but I don't think they're so strictly accurate. But if the theory holds, it wouldn't be off more than a few years.

[Griff]

Revolution, Civil War, and Depression/WW2 commonality lottsa dead folks. Trend- increasingly centralized government.

[wolf]

Originally posted by vsp
From a direct, personal standpoint, the ONLY difference in my everyday life is that I get frisked by an electronic wand before I go into the Spectrum to watch Phantoms games. (And if I was a terrorist, a minor-league hockey game would be MY first choice of target.)

I suspect your wanding at the Spectrum has more to do with the actions of 'bangers in Phila than it does terrorists in the Middle East or elsewhere. They always used to do physical searches at the stadiums, didn't they? Wanding is more effective, less invasive, and also less likely to result in sexual harassment charges (I operate a walkthrough metal detector and hand-wand as part of my job).

[vsp]

Originally posted by wolf
I suspect your wanding at the Spectrum has more to do with the actions of 'bangers in Phila than it does terrorists in the Middle East or elsewhere. They always used to do physical searches at the stadiums, didn't they?

Not to my knowledge; these friskings started when the bombings of Iraq started. Before, they might ask to look in your cooler to make sure you didn't bring in bottled beer; now, EVERYBODY gets searched. A friend of mine assumes the POW/concentration-camp position when he goes through the turnstiles (arms behind the head), to my great amusement and the consternation of the security guard.

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Your perspective of the world and our countries place in it may not have changed but you are not an island (to coin a phrase) and lots of changes are going on that will affect you. I'll wager much more than you can forsee.

Only if you believe that Bush & Co. would have done many things quite differently had 9/11 not happened. I don't; I sincerely believe that taking out Hussein, provisions of the PATRIOT Act, an aggressive takeover of the judiciary, etc., were part of their playbook all along, and 9/11 was an unfortunate but nonetheless useful pretext for them to speed things along and intimidate opposition. If it hadn't happened, something else would've.

This isn't "Bush caused 9/11" or "Bush knew it was coming and did nothing" conspiracy theory; either theory may or may not hold some truth, but we'll never know, so I don't lose sleep over them. All I'm saying is that all that changed on 9/11 was their timetable and the ease of execution of what they had in mind. It's not as if Cheney, Rummy, Wolfowitz and such haven't been chanting the "best defense is a good offense" mantra <a href="http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm">for years now</a>...

[xoxoxoBruce]

"best defense is a good offense" mantra for years now...

I've been under the impression this was strictly foreign policy. Are you saying "we" are targets of these men also?

I can remember being patted down EVERY time I went to concerts at the Spectrum or Tower. I don't think it was my sexy body that prompted it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Hmmm.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
I consider Moore more an entertainer than an investigative reporter. Since 9/11 I've seen a tremendous increase in potential for ugliness than actual ugliness. But, the power is there.

The idea that a phone can be tapped or a computer searched without any kind of judicial review, even after the fact, is very troubling. Yes, if there is an imminent threat, actions should be allowed for in an emergency, and they always have been. But now a judge may never get involved.

Who watches the watchers?

[richlevy]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Hmmm.

So because they feed you in jail and give you a book and an issue of clothing, it's ok to detain you on no charges for almost two years?

Wow, I must have missed the part in the 5th Amendment about parting gifts.

Yes, the 5th specifically allows exemptions for war and other emergencies. But almost 2 years? And they were released without being charged.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The 5th or any other part of our constitution does not apply to them. As a matter of fact, if they had their way, the constitution would be a historical relic of a former country.

[Undertoad]

What kind of insanity is this? In what court would you charge them? Maybe the Belgian courts where they charged Tommy Franks with being a war criminal?

Look, I'll guarantee you this: if there is *another* 9/11 style attack in the US, that's when you'll have your permanent change to deal with, and afterwards Patriot I will look like a ban on chewing gum.

At the end of the day the honorable opposition -- whichever side you think that is -- is only as powerful as the American public lets them be.

I really don't think you join the al Qaeda or Taliban looking for a bridge club to play cards with. Two years for, at the very least, aiding the enemy? They got off light. These people are thugs who want to kill you.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by Undertoad
What kind of insanity is this? In what court would you charge them? Maybe the Belgian courts where they charged Tommy Franks with being a war criminal?

In some kind of court. If a soldier is taken prisoner during a war, he is returned after the war is over. If a person commits crimes during war, he is tried, convicted, and imprisoned.

We are witnessing some kind of muddled version mixture of the two where combatants and anyone in the vicinity who might have been a combatant are scooped up and examined for close to two years to prove their innocence, then when it is exhaustingly clear that they are completely innocent, they are given a package and returned. Compounding the issue is the fact that some of these men are citizens of countries we consider allies.

If its not a military court, and its not a civilian court, and its not even a tribunal, what is it?

I want some degree of safety, but I also do not want my government to go to extreme lengths to guarantee my safety in the short term with implications for the long term.

[xoxoxoBruce]

examined for close to two years to prove their innocence,

I don't think that was the case at all. They were guilty. They were detained to find out what they knew about the rest of Osama's organization. Were the situation reversed, our boys would have simply been tortured then killed. These prisioners were treated much better than they could have been and many would say, should have been.

[Billy]

I think we can not judge one people if he/she is stupid by one's skin color. Maybe there are the same chracters in the same skin people. But it is difficult to summrize them in one word.