Berkeley City Council Doing Its Anti-Democracy Bit

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Who was the last nation to invade switzerland?
oh, thats right, nobody.
whos the last person they invaded?
oh, thats right, nobody.

All one needs to avoid military conflict is to become a mountainous nation (that's the hard part), and give the entire nation high-powered rifles and train them to be snipers (the easy part).

[classicman]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Wow. Classicman do you really believe there's an external threat to your way of life right now? Do you believe your freedoms are under threat from an external enemy?

That's scary. That's really scary.

no there aren't any threats to us - 9/11 never really happened - just like we never landed on the moon.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by classicman

no there aren't any threats to us - 9/11 never really happened - just like we never landed on the moon.

A threat to our safety is not a threat to our freedom.
we should have a national guard to defend our security, like I said... but our military doesn't really help defend our freedom.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by classicman

Ibby, I have so much to say to that, but I think it will be said and taken much better by Reg Joe or Merc. All I can say is you have absolutely no perspective.

Given the responses up to post #93 it would be a complete waste of time trying to explain it. His mind is made up.

[Ibby]

If you can justify militarism and invasion/occupation to me without sounding like UG... have at it. My mind is NEVER as made up as it sounds, trust me. I'm a teenager after all, right?

[Undertoad]

A threat to our safety is not a threat to our freedom

Further threats to our safety will lead to the full-on demand of further loss of freedoms.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Further threats to our safety will lead to the full-on demand of further loss of freedoms.

You can take that to the bank. Another 9/11 style attack will become the test of our Constitution as we know it. I am not agreeing or disagreeing that changes would have to be made.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You can take that to the bank. Another 9/11 style attack will become the test of our Constitution as we know it. I am not agreeing or disagreeing that changes would have to be made.

We failed the pop quiz we're gonna get rolled on the test.

Regarding the mountains; we had oceans at one point but I guess they dried up. I agree with Ibby's general tone.

[lookout123]

i know i may be oversimplifying things a bit, but the gist of Ibram's thoughts are that if we just roll up the military and bring everyone back into our borders, then everyone will quit being mad at us and we'll have nothing to worry about?

Griff, you're old enough to know better. I'm not saying rampant imperialism is desireable, but isolationism is just as impractical.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Griff, you're old enough to know better. I'm not saying rampant imperialism is desireable, but isolationism is just as impractical.

I'm old enough to know that entrenched economic power trumps patriotism, if that's what you mean. I also know that the Republic failed, but I will mourn her.

[lookout123]

I also know that the Republic failed, but I will mourn her.

The Republic that you're mourning has been failing since the day she was launched. Just like living is just the slow process of dying.

Every step of the way the republic has been moving closer to failure. A portion of every generation since the first has been certain that the failure was nearly complete. The country is changing but that is nothing new. It swings too far to the right then too far to the left and then...

So what are you going to do? Wall yourself off from the world because it doesn't fit neatly into the box you think it should? I doubt it. You'll keep getting up in the morning and doing your job. You'll raise your kids the best you can. You'll grow old, all the while being convinced that the republic is failing - and you'll be right. and wrong. the republic won't always be the world's largest superpower. that is inevitable. But once upon a time the average person in England couldn't conceive of a time when they wouldn't be at the center of global discussion. Times change and it seems to me that they are still living just fine there.

[BigV]

I, too, agree with the tone of Ibram's posts. But I read them differently. Not as a cry for a return to isolationism, but as a call for a more rational use of our (considerable) military might.

We **HAVE** awesome military power, and it is powerfully appealing to want to use the biggest hammer in the toolbox. But it is not always the best option. It is not always the most effective means of achieving a result.

Even when a goal is laudable, it may be a poor use of the military as well. They're soldiers and sailors and marines and airmen and coasties. As part of their job, they may know how to build a bridge or a school. They may know how to talk to a civilian suspect. They're clearly highly competent in their areas of speciality, and their training is excellent. But they're not nation builders. They're not even peace keepers. They're warriors, right? Isn't that what they train for? For war.

During this administration, they've been used and abused as a blunt heavy instrument. Not all our problems, problems we share with others can be bombed into submission.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

i know i may be oversimplifying things a bit, but the gist of Ibram's thoughts are that if we just roll up the military and bring everyone back into our borders, then everyone will quit being mad at us and we'll have nothing to worry about?

Just because the hole will still be there when you stop isn't a reason to keep digging.

Griff, you're old enough to know better. I'm not saying rampant imperialism is desireable, but isolationism is just as impractical.

Not invading countries isn't isolationism. There are all sorts of ways to engage in world affairs without killing.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by lookout123

You'll keep getting up in the morning and doing your job. You'll raise your kids the best you can.

I'll roll out at 5:45 no matter. The big problem for me is that we're destroying the opportunity to be a model of free and productive humanity just as huge science driven innovations create so much opportunity for humanity. Instead of being major players in the future, we muddle around in foreign lands subsidizing the hierarchy of the past with the investment dollars and blood needed for our children's futures. Here we are at the edge of a truly wonderous time for mankind, handing the ball off to totalitarians.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by BigV

I, too, agree with the tone of Ibram's posts. But I read them differently. Not as a cry for a return to isolationism, but as a call for a more rational use of our (considerable) military might.

Thank you, V. You got it.