American Excess

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by lookout123

See here is the thing - what you are talking about are the benefits of having legal status. If they have all of the benefit of legal immigrants but didn't have to go through any of the hassle - why would anyone choose to go the legal route?

You presume none of them want to law abiding. I would argue most want to be law abiding, but life has dealt them a set of circumstances where the best solution is to be an illigal immigrant. Given a chance to be legal, most would. Why are there so many applications to become legal immigrants? Not because people want to pay taxes, but because they don't want to be illegal. They don't want to worry about being arrested. They want to be able to get medical insurance and go see the same doctor instead of waiting for 12 hours at the ER to be treated for a cold, or to actually have prenatal care, or to recieve regular care for high blood pressure... And if they become legal, chances are they can get a better paying job, instead of being limited to employers that will higher illegals.

[lookout123]

I would argue most want to be law abiding, but life has dealt them a set of circumstances where the best solution is to be an illigal immigrant.

And I want to be wealthy but life dealt me a different set of circumstances - I was born into a poor family with a fine tradition of not escaping the neighborhood and a more than passing aquaintance with the penal system.

I chose to follow the rules even when it wasn't the easiest or most attractive path. I chose to fight my way into school paying for it myself through military service and multiple jobs. I chose to accept a sub-poverty line paying job after college. I chose to keep working hard inside the system even when it would have been easier not to. I choose every day to keep working in the system in the knowledge that where I go is up to me. Maybe I'll hit the target, maybe I won't. Life doesn't always deal you what you want. Tough shit. Deal with it. Don't expect sympathy from me for people who decide it is ok to break the law because they didn't have golden opportunities handed to them.

[lookout123]

None of the people punished under that law were wrong or worthy of punishment, even if they weren't breaking the law as a form of civil disobedience.

Yes they were. They knowingly broke the law. We are taught from early on that breaking the law is wrong. Breaking the law makes us worthy of punishment. The law itself may be morally repugnant and worthy of being overturned, but if the law is upheld then you are accountable to that law.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Yes they were. They knowingly broke the law. We are taught from early on that breaking the law is wrong. Breaking the law makes us worthy of punishment. The law itself may be morally repugnant and worthy of being overturned, but if the law is upheld then you are accountable to that law.

Breaking the law makes us subject to punishment, not worthy of it. We are taught from early on that breaking the law is wrong, because that's an easy shorthand to teach children, until they can learn to judge authority. It's the equivalent of, "because I said so."

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by lookout123

And I want to be wealthy but life dealt me a different set of circumstances - I was born into a poor family with a fine tradition of not escaping the neighborhood and a more than passing aquaintance with the penal system.

I chose to follow the rules even when it wasn't the easiest or most attractive path. I chose to fight my way into school paying for it myself through military service and multiple jobs. I chose to accept a sub-poverty line paying job after college. I chose to keep working hard inside the system even when it would have been easier not to. I choose every day to keep working in the system in the knowledge that where I go is up to me. Maybe I'll hit the target, maybe I won't. Life doesn't always deal you what you want. Tough shit. Deal with it. Don't expect sympathy from me for people who decide it is ok to break the law because they didn't have golden opportunities handed to them.

I don't come from a privileged background, used the military as a way to get my education, and have worked hard all my life. But I do have sympathy for a father who crosses the border with his family so he won't have to watch his children die from dysentary, or watch his daughter become a prostitute for the foreign tourists, and wants to support his aging parents. I appluad him for doing what he needs to do in order to care for his family. He'll work whatever crap job he can get just to feed his kids. There is a huge difference between not having "golden opportunities" like attending college, and being born in an undeveloped state where its a struggle to feed your family, where women and children are trafficked from rural regions to urban centers and tourist areas for sexual exploitation, often through fraudulent offers of employment or through threats of physical violence, where medical care is only for the top tier of the society... the list can go on and on.

[lookout123]

I spend a lot of time in Mexico. There is opportunity there as well, it is not one large cesspool with a floating brothel. Is it where I would choose to live? Not most places, no. But there is opportunity. Save the sob story and sympathy card. Every country has the issues you spoke of. And every person has the choice whether to take the hard route or the easy route.