American Excess

[lookout123]

Have you ever sped?

Yes, and when I was caught I paid the penalty for breaking that law. I paid the penalty when I re-registered late. I paid the penalty each and every time I've been found not to be in compliance with the law. When I was not in compliance with the law (committing a crime) I was indeed a criminal, make sense?

do you think we should categorize all illegal immigrants as criminals?

Uh, yes? What else would you call someone who lives each and every day intentionally breaking the law?

I don't think the majority of people believe the majority of illegal immigrants are "criminals", which implies deviant behavior and a propensity to break serious laws.

Criminal = someone breaking the law regardless of whether it is a "serious law". And while we're at it - could you list for me which laws we should enforce and which ones we shouldn't? Are some laws just suggestions? Requests? Ideals? Whether or not you agree with a law is irrelevent. If it is a law that is on the books you are responsible for complying or you breaking the law, committing a criminal act.

I think the issue most people have with their illegal status is that they do not pay into the 'system' (taxes) yet receive the benefits (medical care).

I have a problem with the fact that they are breaking the law by being here. They drive around getting into auto accidents uninsured. They drive down the quality of public education. The tax issue is only part of the story.

Regular.JoeAmong the people who call for deporting all illegal aliens now, I wonder how many would think twice after paying $10.00 for a head of lettuce. Perhaps more, there are union dues to think about....

Thanks for the hyperbole. There may very well be price inflation as the economy adjusts, but not to that extreme. The job isn't going to start paying $20/hour just because legal employees are now picking the produce. And unions- not so much. Low skill jobs in right to work states have ZERO chance of unionizing and driving up costs.

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by lookout123

I have a problem with the fact that they are breaking the law by being here. They drive around getting into auto accidents uninsured. They drive down the quality of public education. The tax issue is only part of the story.

Believe "driving down the quality of public education" would be addressed with, hmmm... paying taxes. And they wouldn't be uninsured either if hmmm... they could get a license and insurance.

You claim rightouesness by saying, yes you've been caught speeding and have paid a fine. But has that stopped you from speeding? Be honest. How many times have you sped, versus how many times have you been caught? If you haven't turned yourself into the police and paid a fine for each and everytime you've sped, guess what - you're still a criminal. Just because you weren't caught doesn't mean you aren't guilty. Sounds like moral relativeism on your part to me.

[lookout123]

Believe "driving down the quality of public education" would be addressed with, hmmm... paying taxes. And they wouldn't be uninsured either if hmmm... they could get a license and insurance.

See here is the thing - what you are talking about are the benefits of having legal status. If they have all of the benefit of legal immigrants but didn't have to go through any of the hassle - why would anyone choose to go the legal route?

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by lookout123

See here is the thing - what you are talking about are the benefits of having legal status. If they have all of the benefit of legal immigrants but didn't have to go through any of the hassle - why would anyone choose to go the legal route?

You presume none of them want to law abiding. I would argue most want to be law abiding, but life has dealt them a set of circumstances where the best solution is to be an illigal immigrant. Given a chance to be legal, most would. Why are there so many applications to become legal immigrants? Not because people want to pay taxes, but because they don't want to be illegal. They don't want to worry about being arrested. They want to be able to get medical insurance and go see the same doctor instead of waiting for 12 hours at the ER to be treated for a cold, or to actually have prenatal care, or to recieve regular care for high blood pressure... And if they become legal, chances are they can get a better paying job, instead of being limited to employers that will higher illegals.

[lookout123]

I would argue most want to be law abiding, but life has dealt them a set of circumstances where the best solution is to be an illigal immigrant.

And I want to be wealthy but life dealt me a different set of circumstances - I was born into a poor family with a fine tradition of not escaping the neighborhood and a more than passing aquaintance with the penal system.

I chose to follow the rules even when it wasn't the easiest or most attractive path. I chose to fight my way into school paying for it myself through military service and multiple jobs. I chose to accept a sub-poverty line paying job after college. I chose to keep working hard inside the system even when it would have been easier not to. I choose every day to keep working in the system in the knowledge that where I go is up to me. Maybe I'll hit the target, maybe I won't. Life doesn't always deal you what you want. Tough shit. Deal with it. Don't expect sympathy from me for people who decide it is ok to break the law because they didn't have golden opportunities handed to them.

[lookout123]

None of the people punished under that law were wrong or worthy of punishment, even if they weren't breaking the law as a form of civil disobedience.

Yes they were. They knowingly broke the law. We are taught from early on that breaking the law is wrong. Breaking the law makes us worthy of punishment. The law itself may be morally repugnant and worthy of being overturned, but if the law is upheld then you are accountable to that law.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Yes they were. They knowingly broke the law. We are taught from early on that breaking the law is wrong. Breaking the law makes us worthy of punishment. The law itself may be morally repugnant and worthy of being overturned, but if the law is upheld then you are accountable to that law.

Breaking the law makes us subject to punishment, not worthy of it. We are taught from early on that breaking the law is wrong, because that's an easy shorthand to teach children, until they can learn to judge authority. It's the equivalent of, "because I said so."

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by lookout123

And I want to be wealthy but life dealt me a different set of circumstances - I was born into a poor family with a fine tradition of not escaping the neighborhood and a more than passing aquaintance with the penal system.

I chose to follow the rules even when it wasn't the easiest or most attractive path. I chose to fight my way into school paying for it myself through military service and multiple jobs. I chose to accept a sub-poverty line paying job after college. I chose to keep working hard inside the system even when it would have been easier not to. I choose every day to keep working in the system in the knowledge that where I go is up to me. Maybe I'll hit the target, maybe I won't. Life doesn't always deal you what you want. Tough shit. Deal with it. Don't expect sympathy from me for people who decide it is ok to break the law because they didn't have golden opportunities handed to them.

I don't come from a privileged background, used the military as a way to get my education, and have worked hard all my life. But I do have sympathy for a father who crosses the border with his family so he won't have to watch his children die from dysentary, or watch his daughter become a prostitute for the foreign tourists, and wants to support his aging parents. I appluad him for doing what he needs to do in order to care for his family. He'll work whatever crap job he can get just to feed his kids. There is a huge difference between not having "golden opportunities" like attending college, and being born in an undeveloped state where its a struggle to feed your family, where women and children are trafficked from rural regions to urban centers and tourist areas for sexual exploitation, often through fraudulent offers of employment or through threats of physical violence, where medical care is only for the top tier of the society... the list can go on and on.

[lookout123]

I spend a lot of time in Mexico. There is opportunity there as well, it is not one large cesspool with a floating brothel. Is it where I would choose to live? Not most places, no. But there is opportunity. Save the sob story and sympathy card. Every country has the issues you spoke of. And every person has the choice whether to take the hard route or the easy route.