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Politics Where we learn not to think less of others who don't share our views |
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#16 |
Coronation Incarnate
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: On the skin of a tiny planet in an obscure galaxy in a lackluster corner of the universe.
Posts: 94
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I have utter confidence that even if the proper evidence does not get found, someone will find something - or they may just say that all the weapons were moved to Syria.
I like the claims that a senior Iraqi unnamed scientist came out of the woodwork to tell the Americans that Iraq destroyed everything they had- and cleaned up all the evidence - just as the Americans were advancing. Does this make sense? If you had a gun, and someone was breaking into your house, would you destroy your gun so that the invader would not punish you when he found it? this stupid breakdown in reasoning is really getting agravating. The right seems to peddle the stupidest stories to the masses and they are totally willing to believe without question. All hail the God King.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. George Orwell |
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#17 | |
no one of consequence
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 2,839
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#18 | |||
Pithy Euphemist
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 19
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Juju,
If the administration was trying to be credible - and dispel any notions of planted evidence or malfeasnce, they would allow the United Nations inspectors to verify and help find any WMDs that they discover. The fact that they are denying entry to the U.N. leaves me in doubt. These are the same people that said that aluminum tubes imported into Iraq were used for gas centrifuge uranium enrichment - which turned out to be a lie. They said that they had documented proof that Iraq tried to purchase uranium from Africa - which turned out to be a very poor forgery. They cited a dossier as proof of Iraq's weapons program - that turned out to be a plagarized term paper written 10 years ago. They strained to link AL- Qaeda to Saddam Hussein's regime - which was tenious at best. Quote:
The fact that the U.S. is going to exclude any international verification of WMDs found - takes any discoveries they make out of the realm of real, valid, verifiable proof, and makes them simply based upon faith that the government would not lie. As you can see above, the govenrment certainly seems to have no problem using flassified documents, plagiarism, lies, and circumstantial evidence to pursue it's chosen course of action. How can you think that blind faith is justified? Quote:
If an administration lied to the world to start a war - then excluded the world from verifying any of the claims the administration made, how can you automatically assume that any discoveries are valid? What is your burden of proof? Quote:
DId you know that the guy they picked to head the WMD search force is a very close friend of Condoleeza Rice? Is it really that far fetched to think that he might be a team player? |
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#19 |
Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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You could have answered Juju's question without projecting the hysterical opposite onto him.
Actually I guess you did answer Juju's question, just not directly. BTW you're taking the side of the Iraqi Information Minister about the aluminum tubes. |
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#20 |
Pithy Euphemist
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 19
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I am taking the position of Mohamed El Baradei, the International Atomic Energy Association Director General regarding the aluminum tubes.
Here is a Wahington Post article about the subject. Most experts said that the aluminum tubes could not be used for unranium enrichment without massive reengineering, and that the technique would require advanced technology that Iraq did not possess. The IAEA is very reliable. I tend to trust them far more than I trust the current administration.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. George Orwell |
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#21 |
Pithy Euphemist
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 19
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My answer had the caveat that I would find any WMDS suspect without verification by an independent entity. If you prefer a one word answer, the answer is yes.
__________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. George Orwell |
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#22 | |
The future is unwritten
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
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Quote:
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The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. |
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#23 |
Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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And where did ElBaradei get his information? When Iraq itself claimed it was using those tubes for reverse engineering rockets, he thought that was plausible. When it turned out the specifications for the tubes was higher than that the US specifies for its own rockets, and was increasing in precision, ElBaradei scrambled for another explanation.
Forgotten was the fact that they were illegal in the first place. |
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#24 | ||
Pithy Euphemist
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 19
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Undertoad,
The aluminum tubes fell under the bounds of dual use items and were not automatically illegal. I had not seen any articles where El Baradei rescinded his reservations about the aluminum tubes. Do you have a link? Quote:
Quote:
If you have some proof, I will change my position, but barring thatm I will still maintain my position vis-a-vis the tubes.
__________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. George Orwell |
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#26 | |
Read? I only know how to write.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
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Quote:
Why were specification tolerances tighter? I do that on everything I reverse engineer. Only after a working model do we experiment and learn where tolerances can be relaxed. Get a grip UT. Those aluminum tubes are part of a big campagin by the George Jr admininstration to claim Iraq was running a nuclear weapons program. At what point do you finally admit that the administration was lying? Even the George Jr administration quit trying to claim that Iraq had a nuclear weapons program. When are you going to admit that the Geroge Jr administration will lie? This is not an honest administration. They even lied about all those Iraqis who would welcome us with open arms. Of course the George Jr administration lied repeatedly about those aluminum tubes. Desparate to prove Iraq was running a nuclear program. Desperate for some viable fiction to prove it. They were so desperate to create lies then. They will also be desperate to create a phoney WMD program, if necessary. Why keep UN weapons inspectors out? No UN make "lies if necessary" just so much easier. |
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#27 |
Radical Centrist
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 31,423
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Tom, you don't have to help the reverse-engineering theory along, it was discarded.
Meanwhile, I'm taking wagers on WMD, and if anyone wants to offer odds I think it would be appropriate considering your levels of certainty. How about 3 to 1 on finding something that 90% of the public agrees is non-planted WMD? |
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#28 |
He who reads, sometimes writes.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: at the keyboard
Posts: 791
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I think Blix will definitely require physical sight of whatever the US "finds." I also think he'll be the first to say that they originated in an Iowan warehouse facility, as he is the current expert.
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#29 | |
Coronation Incarnate
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: On the skin of a tiny planet in an obscure galaxy in a lackluster corner of the universe.
Posts: 94
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Quote:
Note: Your article - which is entirely consistent with my original claim - was written in January. My article was written in March. SInce El Baradei does not change his tune in either article, I don't see how this porves me wrong. The whole point is, Bush knew what El Bardei said. Bush knew what the scientific community said. Bush knew that they were not lying or playing politics. Bush then claimed in his state of the union address that the tubes were partial proof that Iraq had a clandestine nuclear weapons program. I can't think of a more blatant lie. As I said before, I have no doubt that we will find some WMDs. The problem is, I have a hard time believing anything this administration says. There is an old Texas saying: Fool me once, shame one...shame on, you. Fool me twice... fool me, can't get fooled again.
__________________
The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. Bertrand Russell Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past. George Orwell |
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#30 | |
The future is unwritten
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
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Quote:
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__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. |
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