Armed America - Page 14

xoxoxoBruce · 02-09-2007, 11:02 PM

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Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Good of you to pluck one incident to point out. But big picture facts indicate that the US has 27 times more firearm murders than the UK, where firearms are illegal. Coincidence? I think not.

My point is outlawing guns in Britain didn't make them go away.

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The question really is this: is it worth giving up firearms to reduce the murder rate by two-thirds? Notice, I said giving up, not have them taken from you.

No.:p
I am not the problem or the solution.

Urbane Guerrilla · 02-10-2007, 02:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Monster has a good point. In terms of the number of deaths, there would be a wash, at best. For instance, if Bruce was in a fender bender with Maggie, and got out of his car and approached Maggie, and she was the only one armed, she might feel threatened and shoot Bruce. Or if Bruce was the only one armed, he might shoot her. Either way, there's only one dead body. The shooter would have all the time in the world to shoot, and probably wouldn't miss. If both were armed, they could rush their shots, and shoot innocent bystanders, or they could both hit their targets and kill each other. It's much more likely to have a higher body count.

This entire scenario has been utterly, completely debunked in all 38 states of the Union that have strongly liberalized concealed carry of weapons, Spexx. It simply does not happen, and is a hoplophobic fantasy of yours brought on by your unbalanced thinking on the subject -- as set forth in Raging Against Self Defense. I'll rely more on the experience of 38 states, with the body count and the economic loss count to crime going permanently down, than on the views of one hoplophobe. You should rely upon that yourself -- even if you're terrified of what this might open a trapdoor to, inside your forebrain.

We know the truth, and it has made us free. But if you can't know the truth, it shan't make you free. I think I'd want to be free of what afflicts you, though, if I stood in your shoes. You're really being creepy, Spexx.

Guess I'd better link to Raging Against Self Defense to show people what I'm on about.

Urbane Guerrilla · 02-10-2007, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

The question really is this: is it worth giving up firearms to reduce the murder rate by two-thirds? Notice, I said giving up, not have them taken from you.

You mean volunteer for genocide, and extra crime, the only results ever seen from this kind of thing. Spexx, even with your twisted values, it's not worth it even for you.

This idea we moral people reject forever and ever. If you wish to be a moral person, you must reject it forever also. Do it, man! No matter how much it scares you, I guarantee disarming yourself so you get killed without means of resisting it, retail as in crime or wholesale as in genocide, is much more terrifying, much more the pit of despair.

Ibby · 02-10-2007, 04:45 AM

I don't think anyone could possibly disagree, though, that someone with NO guns is less likely to shoot me than someone with any.

Right?

Undertoad · 02-10-2007, 08:32 AM

Right but wholly irrelevant.

A) The world cannot be sterilized from danger, nor would you want to live in such a place. But more importantly,

B) I caution, resist the urge to solve politics with equations. It seems like it would work that way sometimes, but math is perfect and humans are imperfect.

Clodfobble · 02-10-2007, 08:33 AM

In exactly the same way that someone with no hands is less likely to shoot you than someone with any. Fantasy-land scenarios are a waste of time.

lisa · 02-10-2007, 09:26 AM

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Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I keep bringing this up, I wonder if you read all the posts or don't think of it yourself.
Making a gun of your own, or for others is quite simple.
I get the impression that you think that if you outlaw something it will just go away.
Many of the guns that are used by gangs in the US come from China along with their drugs. The laws would only harm those who are law abiding citizens, making them criminals... they would accomplish nothing else.

This reminds me of an "old" joke, which I tell for the humor and not at all as part of the debate:

Q: How many gun control proponents does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: None. They just pass a law against darkness.

Spexxvet · 02-10-2007, 09:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Clodfobble

In exactly the same way that someone with no hands is less likely to shoot you than someone with any. Fantasy-land scenarios are a waste of time.

Isn't it a fantasy-land scenario that you'll have a gun and be able to use it to stop personal injury or loss of posessions? For that to happen, you would have to have your gun with you, loaded, safety off, at the ready, and anticipate the threat, be able to correctly determine if the threat is real (don't want to make a victim out of an innocent person), be able to aim and hit a target, and have the willingness to kill and face the consequences of killing - all before the aggressor does it to you first.

Spexxvet · 02-10-2007, 09:33 AM

I wonder how many American thought, in 1860, that slavery could be eliminated?

Jordan · 02-10-2007, 09:48 AM

The factof the matter is that firearms are here to stay. There is no way of hunting down each and every criminal and taking away their weapons. Do you truly believe that our law enforcement is capable of rounding up every gun that every criminal currently has, and then keeping new ones from being smuggled in? If that were the case then no country would have a drug problem either.

Keep in mind, I'm not advocating the use of firearms. As far as I'm concerned, they serve no purpose beyond killing. I'm a gun RIGHTS advocate, I believe that you have the right to defend what is yours within reason. If someone breaks into my apt and goes after me, my girlfriends, or Kait, we should have the right and ability to protect ourselves.

Jordan · 02-10-2007, 09:50 AM

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Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Isn't it a fantasy-land scenario that you'll have a gun and be able to use it to stop personal injury or loss of posessions? For that to happen, you would have to have your gun with you, loaded, safety off, at the ready, and anticipate the threat, be able to correctly determine if the threat is real (don't want to make a victim out of an innocent person), be able to aim and hit a target, and have the willingness to kill and face the consequences of killing - all before the aggressor does it to you first.

I was in just that situation 1 1/2 years ago and the story's here

Clodfobble · 02-10-2007, 10:04 AM

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Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Isn't it a fantasy-land scenario that you'll have a gun and be able to use it to stop personal injury or loss of posessions?

There have already been several firsthand accounts of that exact thing here. How many do you need?

Spexxvet · 02-10-2007, 10:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Clodfobble

There have already been several firsthand accounts of that exact thing here. How many do you need?

How many do you need to justify all the shooting deaths? Philadelphia averaged more than a shooting death a day last year. How many lives does it take to justify foiling the theft attempts of Mrnoodle's sound equipment, Kitsune's car, and Jordan's generator?

Jordan · 02-10-2007, 11:30 AM

I'd rather have one and not need it, than need one and not have it.

Tell me, do you ever gamble? That's what criminals do, they know that they run the risk of getting shot and/or going to jail for doing something illegal... then they go out and commit the crime anyways. They willfully break the law, and the police can't be everywhere at once. Now you're saying we eliminate half of their risks? I just don't think so. Why should I work my butt off for a generator I may only use ever once 2-3yrs only to have a crook waltz off with it?

Not far from where I grew up they fire off guns for a birthday, Independence Day, New Years, sporting events and occasionally at one another. Are you saying that I should give up my defensive tools and allow others to prowl the streets with their firearms at the ready? Nopers, not gonna happen.

Spexxvet · 02-10-2007, 12:47 PM

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