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Old 12-08-2006, 09:52 AM   #1
Flint
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The question does not define "forward speed" in a way that makes the question answerable.
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:55 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint
The question does not define "forward speed" in a way that makes the question answerable.
Maybe not for you, but it's clearly written from the point of view of an observer standing on the ground, otherwise it would talk about wind.
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Old 12-08-2006, 11:25 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint
The question does not define "forward speed" in a way that makes the question answerable.
It doesn't have to. Only one of the interpretations is physically possible. Reality isn't an additional assumption.
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Old 12-08-2006, 11:28 AM   #4
Flint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Monkey
Only one of the interpretations is physically possible.
The question doesn't ask you to explain how the hypothetical treadmill accomplishes what is stated.
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint
The question does not define "forward speed" in a way that makes the question answerable.
J Just because they did not tell you which to use as the reference point, then you cannot arbitrarily choose one? Nonsense. See the previous post. Choose air as the reference point. As engines throttle up, velocity of air to airplane increases until takeoff speed is achieved. All this occurs regardless of runway, treadmill, or catapult.

Engine defines a relationship between airplane and air. That makes the problem simple and completely solvable (once we include numbers for engine force, plane mass, and minimum speed for takeoff). It's just not that complex. This is a trivial high school physics problem where a runway / treadmill is completely irrelevant.

So many unable to grasp this so simple problem is scary.
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Old 12-09-2006, 08:38 AM   #6
Flint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Just because they did not tell you which to use as the reference point, then you cannot arbitrarily choose one?
Depending on what you interpret the plane's forward motion as being relative to, you get a different answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Some of these replies are making me feel like a genius.
The question is designed to make you feel like a genius. But, I'm sure you're the one who finally found the "right" answer, huh?
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it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:59 AM   #7
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Occam's Razor
.
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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:05 AM   #8
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What has Occam's Razor got to do with this situation?

There is no wind in the question, so it's written by an observer on the ground.
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:21 AM   #9
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Uh guys, there's no point in debating it. That plane is long gone.
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:24 AM   #10
Flint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt
What has Occam's Razor got to do with this situation?
Not making unwarranted assumptions or adding extra information.

The question does not define "forward speed" in a way that makes the question answerable, and you can't make it so, without going outside of what is stated. (See: most of this thread.) Step #1, often overlooked, is to read the question and establish what is being discussed. In this case, you can't - the question does not contain the information. Any attempt to re-write the question means you are not answering the original question.
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There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:32 AM   #11
hideouse
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Flint,
I owe you an apology. You did note the flaw in the original premise and i missed it. Please excuse me.
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:38 AM   #12
xoxoxoBruce
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The question states the plane moves forward and the ground(treadmill)moves backwards. When you throttle up the plane will take off. The only assumption is the plane is capable of flying in the first place.
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Old 12-08-2006, 06:41 PM   #13
tw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint
The question does not define "forward speed" in a way that makes the question answerable, ...
Of course it does.
Quote:
When the plane's engines throttle up, it begins to move forward,
The classic F=ma relationship and the classic v=ma . Foreward speed is defined once we have numbers for these simple equations. And again, treadmill and observer will only confuse one with irrelevant parameters.
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Old 12-08-2006, 07:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Of course it does. The classic F=ma relationship and the classic v=ma .
the classic v = ma? I'm not familiar with that one. Are you confusing yourself with v=at or p=mv?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tw
Just because they did not tell you which to use as the reference point, then you cannot arbitrarily choose one? Nonsense. See the previous post. Choose air as the reference point.
The problem is not explicit, therefore you must do whatever tw tells you to do.
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Old 12-09-2006, 09:20 AM   #15
Flint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint
Any attempt to re-write the question means you are not answering the original question.
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There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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