South Africa's high court approves gay marriage

[9th Engineer]

Ibram, for the n'th time would you explain how this is sexism? Gay is not a gender. Also, you absolutely cannot remove love from the equation, that's all this is based on. A gay man wants to marry another man because of love (I'm assuming for the sake of argument), otherwise he is free to marry a woman. With love removed it disentigrates into "I wanna do this!", which isn't a valid reason for anything more important than a late night snack. I want some more arguments from Ibram that don't boil down to either "It's sexism!"(unproven) or "It's just WRONG not to!"(is that the best you can do?).
Lovely little rant about my being unAmerican there tw, so now you think you are right because you label your opponet as freedom hating and unAmerican? Readers would do well to remember how fast he was to resort to smear tactics and challenges of Americanism once responded to. His other key blunder is that his entire post is hinged on his statement that he is right.

It only says, "I was wrong but my principles will not allow me to ever be right." With Rumsfeld, that was a prescription to justify mass murder.

Lets look beyond the fact that you are equating my viewpoint with mass-murder here for a second. I said that my principles will not allow me to agree with you, you make the leap to saying that they will always keep me in the wrong. You say two things boldly up front here, neither of which are true 1) You admit you are wrong - Really? Where do I say that? I am no more convinced of any error on my part than when we started. 2) Since I disagree with you I can never be right - Wow, ladies and gentlemen I give you the great debating prowess of tw! I stand in awe, but not of your capacity for argument.

Principle is also characteristic of one who believes he is the new messiah. Does that personal (religous) belief justify hate of gay marriage.
...
So do you really believe you are the new messiah?

I'm going to keep this one, you are actually accusing me of proclaiming myself as a relieous messiah?? I'm touched

America's greatest secret for success is about change, innovation, and therefore the advancement of mankind. An engineer would never be so anti-American. And yet that is 9th's stated principles.

Ah yes, I disagree with a change you like and that means that I am standing in the way of progress. Has anyone ever challenged your notion that your viewpoint constitutes the advancement of mankind? Perhaps you need a little more varience in the opinions of those around you. And you shouldn't be supprised that it's an engineer taking you up on this, we're trained to think things through to every outcome and not to become blinded to an ideology.

Either way, still unanswered is how gay marriage adversely affects anyone. Why no answer? When we have eliminated all other possibilities, the valid answer is one that remains. Apparently gay marriage only hurts emotions of those who hate gays. Why is that the only answer? Because still intentionally unanswered: how does gay marriage harm anyone. Gay marriage should be banned only because it is a classic example of being American – because it is socially innovative? Such innovation only hurts emotions of those who hate.

You demand my explanation and then pretend I didn't answer?? Can you really have read my posts and still think that this little rant means anything? More adhominem attacks on his opponents Americanism.

All you did in that entire post was restate your unsupported opinion over and over again while challenging my worth as an American. I'll let people judge for themselves how this reflects on your ability to debate an issue.

Ok, a breather, then on to the next batch of responses...

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Ibram, for the n'th time would you explain how this is sexism? Gay is not a gender. Also, you absolutely cannot remove love from the equation, that's all this is based on. A gay man wants to marry another man because of love (I'm assuming for the sake of argument), otherwise he is free to marry a woman. With love removed it disentigrates into "I wanna do this!", which isn't a valid reason for anything more important than a late night snack. I want some more arguments from Ibram that don't boil down to either "It's sexism!"(unproven) or "It's just WRONG not to!"(is that the best you can do?).

To say "a man can marry a woman, but a woman may not marry a woman", or "a woman can marry a man, but a man can't marry a man" is sexist in every sense of the word. Anything that discriminates based on gender is sexist by definition. Simple as that. To say that any person can not marry who he or she wishes, whether that person is a he or she, is BULLSHIT, and discriminatory to boot.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Ibram

To say "a man can marry a woman, but a woman may not marry a woman", or "a woman can marry a man, but a man can't marry a man" is sexist in every sense of the word. Anything that discriminates based on gender is sexist by definition. Simple as that.

Sexist (sexism) is discrimination based on gender. Saying men may marry but women may not, or vice versa, is sexism. Not allowing same sex marriage, although discriminatory, is not sexism.