What is it to be Christian ?

[Aliantha]

That's why you shouldn't read!

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Flint

You haven't understood my point: any "one true book" claim facilitates something that is worth dying for, worth killing for. See: history of mankind.

"one true book" is worth dying to protect. But not to protect the book. God will have his word out there whether you like it or not. If you die because of your faith in God, you are truly a believer. No more doubts about hypocrisy or anything else. What if, in the "possibly nearer than you could imagine" future, it becomes a crime to own a Bible (for bonus points, name one of the 3 places wehre this has occurred in the last 40 years), you are essentially asked to revoke your faith or die. What if those who publicly revoke get a mark of somekind to render them "acceptable" to the government. Now they can go back to work, watch TV, travel around and do the World Beer Tour at Old Chicago. We will finally make ourselves the true secular humanists we were always meant to be.

But there's a vague rumble on the horizon. A sense of impending doom. Finally, after all teh locos on the street corners (funny, haven't seen them lately) have been bugging us about this, you'd think they'd want to come out and prophecy about it.

Rumblerumblerumble.

I would like to say that I truly believe that a similar scenario is set to occur. I don't buy any dates put out by nutbag TV preachers. I don't buy the numerology nor the crystal bullshit. It. Is. Coming. That's the only reason these fucktarded Xtians want anything to do with you -- they're genuinely trying (in ever more annoying ways) to make it so that you will miss the reign of the Antichrist.

Because he (whether he is USA, Israel, Syria, whatever..it doesn't matter. He might be Ronald Reagan popped out of his pez dispenser to battle the mighty zorg. But when God himself comes to smite the ever living SMITATIONS of smite out of him, that's it. End game. If you have the mark, you're gone. And I'm sure there will be many many heartbreaking stories of people who go, "But I never had proof of your existence until now!"

We had proof in many many ways. They were ways only discernable to the heart, so those who discounted such weak emotions missed out. But it was written in the bible for those who read. If the critics of God's word spend a friggin weekend on the Chicago Tribune, The building would be razed within a month. No scrutiny more laserlike has ever been focused on a single document, and had the life sucked out of the text by people seeking to destroy God one snide comment at a time.

Anyway, this doesn't really affect my life. My life is to be good to others in all the little ways that you can. You be her shoulder to cry on , you help move the furniture after his divorce. You write a check that seems unaffordable adn give it to them for their kids' college fund. God blesses that.

You see a man or woman on the street, give em a coat and money for some decent drugs or booze. If you don't want em high, put them in your car and drive to Perkins. They're used to seeing em there anyway, and they know my card is good. Got leftovers? Hand em to the bag lady. What. You're going to eat 3 bites of the sweet and sour pork for lunch and go "meh". That lady is going to eat like a Queen. I'm running out of handme down coats btw. If it's a cold winter, time to go pick some up that are good enough to resist -0 winds.

Do other people who don't believe in God do the same thing? Presumably so. But the selfish satisfaction of "I'm a good person, I did this" and the slightly more palatable buzz of seeing a kid smile at Christmas have one extra benefit for a Christian: I might screw up later tonight, or I might not make it to the car. But I feel the presence of the Lord in my life right now, and it feels GOOD to be doing exactly what he told his disciples to do 1000 years ago. You can see a glimpse of heaven through that stuff.

That's why drugs are bad for me. I tend to see hell. Not "see" as in shrooms-style, but see as in understand. And when that happens, it is a long, long, long time before any but the mildest ganja will give me the slight, comfortable buzz that kills my heart racing at what I feel might be true.

It really is an important issue to me. Personally. You can take your debates about abortion and rights and gays and all that stuff and throw it off a cliff. I don't listen to em except for when I need enough anger to make it up a bad hill when bike riding. I Want to Know the Heart of the Living God, and I Want to Serve Him. I am not after your children or your government.

I'm still bogged down in sin, but God keeps coming back with jjjjjjjjjust onnnnnne more chance. I joke about religion because I want to "be one of the guys". I throw the metal horns at shows and paint a cross on my forehead to look metal, even though doing those things feels like it hurts the spirit living inside of me. Lessens it, perhaps.

So before you come at me for my judgementalist, legalistic, archaic notions about the supreme being, understand that I wage a daily battle with my old nature (which is very, VERY good at things that are not of God), and I fail. Twice before breakfast, some days. I call someone an asshole. I sluff off at work. I keep smoking cigarettes even thuogh it would make my mama happy to know that I quit and will add that many more years to my life. I look at porn on the computer, and it shoots down any and all defenses I have, sexually. I get horny, I have to make out. jSuddenly I'm not keeping my eye on what I feel is good and right. I'm trying to get my horn scratched.

Afterwards, I feel the lapse in judgement I allowed, and am utterly tired. So tired of not being able to say no to (drugs, video games, food, sex, whatever your addiction is). Please help me find a way, God.

Suddenly, the way becomes clear. Oh my God. But it requires sacrifice. You have to put aside your desires and lusts and become a new creature. You don't get to ease in over the course of months or years. Here is your decision time. What do you pick? I pick God, of course, but fail miserably at making the necessary changes in my life. I just can't let go of that control. God, everyone I talk to says you don't exist, and that life is about biting off as much as you can chew in the short time available, and the devil take the hindmost. Wouldn't I like to fuck that guy's wife? He'll never know, and it's just for fun. She even gave you her number. You said something really shitty to your mom again this morning, and you knew she was having a hard time with her best friend's death. You should apologize. But you don't. Hey, weed! I really need a bowl right now, I'm stressing at work.

Rinse, repeat.

If you think actively being a Christian means standing in judgement over OTHER people, you're looking at the wrong people. It's not about guilt, it's about striving for excellence and failing, then letting the grace of God pull you back up. He "saves" you, yeah. But he strenghtens you, comforts you, and teaches you. You can have your Buddhas sitting in temples, your priests in their little...priest box things...and your coldly comforting atheist bible. I am seeking (and, rarely, do find) an actual relationship with the creator of everything in the universe.

That is more hardcore than anything you can think of, and I can think of soem hardcore shit.

That's my personal story as it stands right now. Flamers get a laminated symbol of my utter dismissal of their jibes. I jsut have to eat a can of chili and make some.

[Undertoad]

0. These are not flames.

1. Determining ethical behavior without a God involved is a similar struggle. Perhaps exactly the same struggle. One may have a religious moral center, or one may have a philosophical moral center.

2. Anthropology shows that humankind has a true fascination with apocalypse scenarios. Almost everyone agrees with one or another, at some time in their life. Luckily none of these believed-in scenarios has come true and humankind continues to exist.

3. When atheists talk to you about there not being a God, in increasingly annoying ways, they love you and are merely trying to get you not to waste your time here on Earth. Since they don't believe in an afterlife, this is a mortal struggle.

[mrnoodle]

Oh I'm with you on the second point. I don't pretend to know when it's happening. But because I know the word of God to be true, and I see where prophecies have been fulfilled left and right, it's clear to me that strange things are afoot at the Circle K. It might be tomorrow, it might be in 1000 more years; there's no way for us to know when it's going to happen. But to believe in Christ means believing everything he said, not just some of it.

Determining ethical behavior is only a small part of my struggle, and that of other Christians. Once you have experienced a relationship with God, losing it becomes a terrible thing. When you fight with your wife (all jokes aside here), you feel a gap in your heart until you've made things right with her. She's not "there" until you come back together. Likewise, until you reach a good relationship with your creator, there is an emptiness and a searching that is never fulfilled (hence the constant philosophical meanderings that never reach a destination). Once you've experienced that relationship, it is a horrible thing to lose. That's why struggling with sin is so important to Christians. It's not just some legalistic moral requirement, it's the way to reestablish a connection.

That is why Christians need to worry about that relationship and leave everyone else alone.

[mrnoodle]

That's a popular viewpoint. But it's based on the misconception that this is an atheist country that is somehow being taken over by Christians. Actually, the opposite is more true. The US is founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, plain and simple. No amount of whining can change that. However, we all live together and must get along as best as we know how. That doesn't mean that only the Christians have to keep their opinions private and remove them from the arena of ideas. It doesn't mean that anyone of faith must act as atheistic as possible if they are in public office. Separation of church and state is not a requirement for the eradication of religion in the public square, although that's the atheist wet dream.

You are 100% correct, though. If Christians would worry as much about their own lives as they do the lives of others, it would be a far different world. But not in the way you think. If there were more Christians who actually lived like Christ, the message of hope would spread even further, not be choked off.

I don't see how anyone can look at the state of the country today, with popular music soaked in imagery of ho's, killing, drugs, and decay, with people committing mass murder in schools and businesses, with everything that is evil being propped up and everything that is pure being mocked and derided, and decide that things are better when God is out of the picture. We are so frantic that the government might be listening to our conversations and use them against us, but we're completely ambivalent about saying the most hurtful things we can come up with to damage others. We are so bloody concerned that someone somewhere is cutting down a tree, but we ignore the human being right next to us that is dying inside. We want to steal from the rich to give to the poor, but the poor never get anything, and the Robin Hoods have homes on Martha's Vineyard.

Everything is backwards and wrong on a large scale, and it's not because people are acting too Christian, count on that.

[Flint]

Everything good does not come from Christianity.
Everything bad does not come from a lack of Christianity.
Questioning Christianity does not make you an athiest.

[mrnoodle]

Questioning Christianity isn't bad. You're not supposed to just drink the kool-aid and act like a good boy.

I'm still working on the first 2.

I think it's more that "nothing bad can come from emulating Christ" and "if it's bad, it's not of Christ"

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Questioning Christianity isn't bad.

Is there or isn't there an athiest conspiracy to attack God?

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I think it's more that "nothing bad can come from emulating Christ" and "if it's bad, it's not of Christ"

I have no problem with the message of Jesus. I've commented on the observable institution of Christianity.

[Undertoad]

Nood you describe an odd picture of what the culture is; I think it's by your need to paint a picture that redeems your beliefs, instead of the other way around. You're seeing what you want to see.

Either that, or Colorado is totally insane. I'm not ruling that out.

with people committing mass murder in schools and businesses

I attended schools for 18 years and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them, much less a mass one. I have worked at and consulted for (...counts... aw fuggit) about 30 different companies and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them. There was a guy who lost it, but he only became convinced that he was working on a super-secret AT&T project, and had to be escorted out.

Don't watch the news and listen to the sermon and take that as your reality. Look around and see the reality for yourself. In the reality I notice, people go to their schools and learn, spend most of ther time working at their jobs, and try in vain to get a little bit of entertainment at the end of the day.

everything that is evil being propped up and everything that is pure being mocked and derided

Everything...! Mocked and derided! Please. I mock and deride this statement as obviously false.

and decide that things are better when God is out of the picture.

What you really want is for people to have a stronger moral basis in general, not specfically your moral basis, right?

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Flint

Is there or isn't there an athiest conspiracy to attack God?I have no problem with the message of Jesus. I've commented on the observable institution of Christianity.

It's not an atheist conspiracy. It's the culmination of many years of rejecting God on a nationwide scale combined with the hypocrisy of Christians themselves. I switched to the words "emulating Christ" because the word "Christianity" has acquired so much baggage through the years that has nothing to do with its real definition.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Nood you describe an odd picture of what the culture is; I think it's by your need to paint a picture that redeems your beliefs, instead of the other way around. You're seeing what you want to see.

Mmmaybe. I don't think so, though. There has always been good and bad in the world, so it's not as if we are more wicked now than ever before. In that respect, it's true that it's business as usual. However, in this country, we are culturally becoming morally bankrupt. For example, we have eliminated slavery, but what have we replaced it with? Glocks, pimps, and "baby daddies". By "we" I don't mean "whites", I mean the culture as a whole. Freedom of speech is no longer about the right to speak out against government. It's about how offensive you can be without anyone taking you to task on it.

Either that, or Colorado is totally insane. I'm not ruling that out.

I can't argue with this.

I attended schools for 18 years and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them, much less a mass one. I have worked at and consulted for (...counts... aw fuggit) about 30 different companies and not once did anyone commit a murder at any of them. There was a guy who lost it, but he only became convinced that he was working on a super-secret AT&T project, and had to be escorted out.

Although most kids will never see a murder happen, there is a 100% increase in school shootings nationwide. It was inconceivable at one time that anything like that could possibly occur. Now, you can't go a month without an incident cropping up. What changed between then and now? Guns are harder to get, security is tighter, laws are more strictly enforced. Something has fundamentally changed in the minds of these kids and in the adults that care for them -- what is it?

Don't watch the news and listen to the sermon and take that as your reality. Look around and see the reality for yourself. In the reality I notice, people go to their schools and learn, spend most of ther time working at their jobs, and try in vain to get a little bit of entertainment at the end of the day.

If something occurs and you hear about it on the news, it's reality. It doesn't immediately affect my small bubble of existence necessarily, but it's real. And the problems are growing, not receding. It's nice that most of us are still able to function in our lives without being touched by the worst of these crimes. So were the victims, until it happened to them.

Everything...! Mocked and derided! Please. I mock and deride this statement as obviously false.

It's considered ridiculous for someone to remain a virgin until marriage. Nothing is funnier than mocking someone's religious beliefs -- those sheep. MTV2's icon is Cerberus, the 3-headed guardian of the gates of hades. Truth in advertising, that -- the music that's popular glorifies death, both physical and spiritual. There are still songs about normal things, but they're sharing more and more airtime with odes to suicide, hopelessness, loveless sex, getting and staying high, and telling everyone else to fuck off. I'm in a metal band, I should know. The anger and fear that used to fuel aggression and rebellion in the fringe of the music scene is mainstream now. No one knows what they're rebelling against, they just want to feel the power that comes from anger. Kids cut themselves for no reason. Nothing is shocking -- you can find beheading videos, images of massacre and rape (the real thing), and pedophilia with 5 minutes and an internet connection. I laugh at ytmnd.com, but check out the nsfw version of their forums. These are kids. They haven't even started shaving yet, but they've learned to ridicule the mentally and physically handicapped, where to find the best fisting footage, and what a head looks like after being hit with buckshot. Seriously, go check it out. These are normal kids, just trying to outshock each other, but what are the long term effects of constantly soaking in this imagery and hatred?

What you really want is for people to have a stronger moral basis in general, not specfically your moral basis, right?

I guess not. I think that real morality comes from God. You can approximate it without God in the mix, but at some point it fails to deliver. Like I said, the people who are so concerned that someone is going to "force" God on them might be better served worrying about what is being injected gradually. It's a lot more damaging. There have been superpowers before the USA, and they were just as -- if not more -- powerful, in the context of their time. Eventually they all collapsed under their excesses. We've only been around 200-odd years, and we're already feeling the strain. That's not a good sign.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

I switched to the words "emulating Christ" because the word "Christianity" has acquired so much baggage through the years that has nothing to do with its real definition.

I've said this before, ad nauseum, but I'm not imposing a definition upon Christianity. I'm using the most obvious definition possible. If an institution calls itself Christianity, I take that self-definition at face value. I don't need to do any semantic trickery. There should be no confusion about whether I am discussing theoretical Christianity or actual Christianity. When I say Christianity, I mean simply that. Nothing more, nothing less. Christianity: the actual thing that actually exists.

Accordingly: I'm asuming that any persons who choose to define themselves as Christian will understand that this logically implies membership in the observable institution of Christianity. The actual Christianity, not the theoretical one.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

The US is founded on Judeo-Christian philosophy, plain and simple. No amount of whining can change that.

What's "Judeo-Christian philosophy"? If it's the Old Testament, then it is just Jewish. If it is Old and New Testament, then it's just Christian. Is it bits and pieces taken from philosophers of each persuasion?

As there were more Deists among the Founding Fathers than Jews, I suspect that the "Judeo-Christian philosophy" line is Bill O'Reilly's code word for "the US was founded as a Christian nation".

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Flint

I've said this before, ad nauseum, but I'm not imposing a definition upon Christianity. I'm using the most obvious definition possible. If an institution calls itself Christianity, I take that self-definition at face value. I don't need to do any semantic trickery. There should be no confusion about whether I am discussing theoretical Christianity or actual Christianity. When I say Christianity, I mean simply that. Nothing more, nothing less. Christianity: the actual thing that actually exists.

Accordingly: I'm asuming that any persons who choose to define themselves as Christian will understand that this logically implies membership in the observable institution of Christianity. The actual Christianity, not the theoretical one.

I'm not accusing you of playing semantics. "Christian" means "Christ-like". No matter how impressive the buildings, the choir robes, the Popemobile, or the rituals, Christianity is the condition of following Christ, not the religious, legalistic accoutrements. I was just clarifying that.

Originally Posted by HM

What's "Judeo-Christian philosophy"? If it's the Old Testament, then it is just Jewish. If it is Old and New Testament, then it's just Christian. Is it bits and pieces taken from philosophers of each persuasion?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They're not talking about Vishnu.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

They're not talking about Vishnu.

Christianity does not have a patent on God.