If you outlaw guns, then only....

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

After all these gun-threads I still haven't seen one bit of proof that allowing civilians to carry concealed weapons makes the US a safer country. On the contrary

When I was in Merced, CA, I was at the motel unloading my stuff. Because of the value of the items I was carrying in my vehicle, I carried a gun whenever transporting them. I took my suitcase up to the room, and when I returned, 2 guys approached my truck from different angles. One hopped over the fence by the pool and came from the rear, and the other was already peeking in the back windows when I came around the corner, so I don't know where he came from.

I'm normally pretty friendly to people when travelling, but these guys were up to no good. I said "how's it going" and started around to the passenger side to get the vehicle between me and them. They both moved to block me in, then suddenly they didn't seem interested in me at all. They took off running (literally) in 2 different directions. The reason? I had a Glock 21 on my hip that they apparently hadn't seen because of the stuff I was carrying in.

There was no cowboy music playing, I didn't feel like a tough guy nor did I feel overly freaked out or anything. I just went around to the desk and told the woman there that there were a couple of guys casing her customers. I dunno if she ever called the cops or not, or even if she understood me. I never saw the guys again, and the rest of the month went by without incident.

Did I "make the country a safer place" or "blahblahblah reduce crime blahblahblah"? No. But the presence of a weapon kept me from being a victim. And I don't care for people telling me that they don't think I should have that right. If other people are misusing their rights, take it up with them. I have nothing to do with it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Absolutely. I you don't threaten me my guns will never be an issue.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

...Did I "make the country a safer place" or "blahblahblah reduce crime blahblahblah"? No. But the presence of a weapon kept me from being a victim. And I don't care for people telling me that they don't think I should have that right. If other people are misusing their rights, take it up with them. I have nothing to do with it.

The ultimate question is this:

If the two guys had persisted, and tried to take your stuff, would you have killed them? Is "stuff" worth more than the lives of those two guys?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Is "stuff" worth more than the lives of those two guys?

Yes.

What value do you place on the lives of thugs? Why?

[Pangloss62]

Holy crap! 17 pages of argument and rancor about...GUNS! Imagine that. I think that speaks to the fanaticism of much of their owners (ok, and their opponents).

Since I started this thread, I think I can chime in now, 17 pages later.

Indeed...and do take that animistic idea that objects can be implicitly evil (rather than people) with you.

In regards to the above quote from the ever-lovable Maggie, I don't think I ever stated or even implied (I'm confused by her use of the word "implicitly" regarding evil objects) that guns, or any object for that matter, were themselves evil. I don't even believe in the concept of evil anyway.

It's always about people. All one has to do is look at the magazine rack at any major supermarket and see how obsessive gun owners can be. What cracks me up is that most of the guns they obsess over are assualt weapons. Let's face it, guns make people feel and be powerful, but I don't think it's the power to stop genocide like one cellarite said. I doubt he's gonna take his guns to Darfur to stop that one. But he says he's got my pansy, non-gun-toting back in case a genocide happens here. Should I laugh or cry?

I would insert my "neutral" emoticon after that last sentence, but Flint said he was getting bummed out by my overuse of it, so I will defer to him because he's one of the more rational posters here in what can at times be a very muggy (perhaps maggie) cellar.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

All one has to do is look at the magazine rack at any major supermarket and see how obsessive gun owners can be.

The accuracy of magazine covers in forming an understanding people who own guns is about as accurate as any other stereotype you would build from the same source. About single men, perhaps? Car lovers, body builders...what do they obsess about, according to magazine covers? How about married women?

If you want to actually understand gun owners, visit a shooting range. Perhaps even learn to shoot.

On the other hand, if all you want to do is reenforce your own preconceptions, the magzaine rack will do.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

Let's face it, guns make people feel and be powerful, but I don't think it's the power to stop genocide like one cellarite said.

Genocide is only a series of murders. Armed people are harder to kill. Most genocodes begin with disarming the targets.

Here's an account of how this applies in Darfur, since that's the example you chose.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

...and started around to the passenger side to get the vehicle between me and them. They both moved to block me in...

The way I read it, they were going to kick the shit out of noodle and take his gear. Would that have been the better outcome?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Griff

The way I read it, they were going to kick the shit out of noodle and take his gear. Would that have been the better outcome?

If Noodle walked/ran away, nobody gets beat up or shot dead. Is "gear" worth killing?

[Griff]

Was he going to be allowed to walk away and maybe contact authorities? Why let the criminals decide whether or not Noodle spends the rest of his days on a respirator? Noodle did not initiate force, but they chose to at a minimum intimidate and their further intentions were not clear, he had a moral obligation to respond.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Griff

Was he going to be allowed to walk away and maybe contact authorities? Why let the criminals decide whether or not Noodle spends the rest of his days on a respirator? Noodle did not initiate force, but they chose to at a minimum intimidate and their further intentions were not clear, he had a moral obligation to respond.

First, he didn't "respond"

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

...The reason? I had a Glock 21 on my hip that they apparently hadn't seen because of the stuff I was carrying in...

And second, "he had a moral obligation to respond"?!??! WTF? He has a "moral obligatio" to threaten someone with a gun, shoot someone, and/or kill someone? What kind of morals are they?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

First, he didn't "respond"
And second, "he had a moral obligation to respond"?!??! WTF? He has a "moral obligatio" to threaten someone with a gun, shoot someone, and/or kill someone? What kind of morals are they?

The kind of morals that require a decent human being from letting thugs make decent people cower in fear every time they leave their house.

You don't cower in fear when you leave your house? Thank moral people who won't let thugs run rampant over our society. No, I'm not talking about gun carriers, or even gun owners, necessarily.....I'm talking about people who don't.....

walked/ran away, nobody gets beat up or shot dead

.

People that stand up and say, NO, you're not taking over the streets....NO, you're not running roughshod over decent people......NO, you're no making me cower in fear. Those are moral people.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

The kind of morals that require a decent human being from letting thugs make decent people cower in fear every time they leave their house.

You don't cower in fear when you leave your house? Thank moral people who won't let thugs run rampant over our society. No, I'm not talking about gun carriers, or even gun owners, necessarily.....I'm talking about people who don't.....

walked/ran away, nobody gets beat up or shot dead

.

People that stand up and say, NO, you're not taking over the streets....NO, you're not running roughshod over decent people......NO, you're no making me cower in fear. Those are moral people.

Why do we even have police and a legal system, then?

Bruce, have you ever been shot or shot someone during a crime (whether you were committing the crime or were the victim? )

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

When I was in Merced, CA, I was at the motel unloading my stuff. Because of the value of the items I was carrying in my vehicle, I carried a gun whenever transporting them. I took my suitcase up to the room, and when I returned, 2 guys approached my truck from different angles. One hopped over the fence by the pool and came from the rear, and the other was already peeking in the back windows when I came around the corner, so I don't know where he came from.

I'm normally pretty friendly to people when travelling, but these guys were up to no good. I said "how's it going" and started around to the passenger side to get the vehicle between me and them. They both moved to block me in, then suddenly they didn't seem interested in me at all. They took off running (literally) in 2 different directions. The reason? I had a Glock 21 on my hip that they apparently hadn't seen because of the stuff I was carrying in.

There was no cowboy music playing, I didn't feel like a tough guy nor did I feel overly freaked out or anything. I just went around to the desk and told the woman there that there were a couple of guys casing her customers. I dunno if she ever called the cops or not, or even if she understood me. I never saw the guys again, and the rest of the month went by without incident.

Did I "make the country a safer place" or "blahblahblah reduce crime blahblahblah"? No. But the presence of a weapon kept me from being a victim. And I don't care for people telling me that they don't think I should have that right. If other people are misusing their rights, take it up with them. I have nothing to do with it.

did you have that scary makeup on?

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by lumberjim

did you have that scary makeup on?

Dude. I did a much better job of that makeup at the gig on Saturday. Plus I had my pirate hat -n- dreads, black contact lenses, and the rest of my outfit (a white t-shirt with the words "lol, pirate" written in sharpie, a pair of shorts, and cowboy boots). I saw pics being taken, I hope I can get my hands on some.