Another school shooting

[Dr. Zaius]

Geez...this is so twisted. Coldly executing children you don't know isn't bad enough. He executes kids dressed in 19th century headbonnets and homemade garb. Why not kill Santa Claus while yer at it?

I wanna divorce from the human race.

[Shawnee123]

I KNOW about these months for student, I'm an administrator who gets to deal with them. Working those hours when the students are yelling at you because they turned in their paperwork WAY late doesn't help either. Working so hard trying to help those students doesn't help either. Nor does finding out the guy you moved in with, who used up all your money so that you are so deep in debt that you have to declare bankruptcy, is calling his ex-girlfriend who he previously hated doesn't help either. Having a car that needs brakes so badly you're afraid to drive it doesn't help either. Trying to figure out how you're going to afford to move out, pay an atty to declare bankruptcy, get your car fixed, and find a way to live doesn't help. Needing glasses and dental work that there's no way you can afford doesn't help.

So, I'm testy too. Perhaps we should just agree to disagree and get on with it.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Even less likely to be a criminal is a legally armed citizen; they prefer to keep their licences.

Are you saying that I, a citizen who is not armed, am MORE likely to be a criminal than you, who are legally armed? Because you're "legally armed"? That makes you...more law abiding than me? Based on what?

I call bull shit.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by BigV

Are you saying that I, a citizen who is not armed, am MORE likely to be a criminal than you, who are legally armed? Because you're "legally armed"? That makes you...more law abiding than me? Based on what?

I call bull shit.

Statistically, those licenced for concealed carry commit fewer crimes per capita than the general population. Not surprising, because they're screened for criminal history, and if they're convicted of a crime they lose their licences.

Originally Posted by http://gunfacts.info

Myth: People with concealed weapons will commit crimes
Fact: The results for the 30 states that have passed “shall-issue” laws for concealed carry permits are similar. Here are some specific cases:
State Permits issued Revoked permits % Revoked
Florida 551,000 109 0.02%[31]
Virginia 50,000 0 0.00%[32]
Arizona 63,000 50 0.08%[33]
Fact: People with concealed carry permits are:[34]
· 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public
· 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public
-----------------
[30] FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1992 – for following bullet points
[31] October 1987 through Jan 1999
[32] 1995 – no follow-up data available
[33] 1994 through 1998
[34] William Strdevant, unpublished study reported in August 2000 edition of America’s 1st Freedom
-----------------
Fact: In Texas, citizens with concealed carry permits are 14 times less likely to commit a crime. They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime.[35]

Fact: Even gun control organizations agree it is a non-problem, as in Texas – “because there haven't been Wild West shootouts in the streets”.[36]

Fact: Of 14,000 CCW licensees in Oregon, only 4 (0.03%) were convicted of the criminal (not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm.

Fact: In Florida, a state that has allowed concealed carry since 1989, you are twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator than a person with a concealed carry permit.[37]

Myth: Texas CCW holders are arrested 66% more often
Fact: This claim comes from the Violence Policy Center (VPC), a gun control policy group. Most arrests the VPC cites are not for any form of violent crime (for example, bounced checks or tax delinquency). [38]

Fact: This data is also for arrests, not convictions.

Fact: Many of these arrests came in the early years of Texas CCWs, when the law was not understood by most of the law enforcement community or prosecutors.

Fact: Compared to the entire population, Texas CCW holders are about 7.6 times less likely to be arrested of a violent crime.[39] The numbers breakdown as follows:

° 214,000 CCW holders
° 526 (0.2%) felony arrests of CCW holders that have been adjudicated
° 100 (0.05%) felony convictions

Fact: The four year violent crime rate for CCW holders is 128 per 100,000. For the general population, it is 710 per 100,000. In other words, CCW holders are 5.3 times less likely to commit a violent crime.[40]
-------------------
[35] Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-
News, September, 2000
[36] Nina Butts, Texans Against Gun Violence, Dallas Morning News, August 10, 2000
[37] Florida Department of State, “Concealed Weapons/Firearms License Statistical Report”, 1998 – Florida
Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission, December 1998
[38] “Basis For Revocation Or Suspension Of Texas Concealed “, Texas Department of Public Safety,
December 1, 1998
[39] Texas Department of Corrections data, 1996-2000, compiled by the Texas State Rifle Association,
www.tsra.com/arrests.htm
[40] “An Analysis Of The Arrest Rate Of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders As Compared To The Arrest Rate Of The Entire Texas Population”, William E. Sturdevant, September 1, 2000

What are we coming to that we are killing helpless children? Sometimes I grow so weary of this world. The guy picked the people least able to defend themselves, too. The Amish don't beleive in guns. As someone else pointed out, since his victims were tied up anyway, he could have used a knife or strangled them with his bear hands. He could have thrown a homemade bomb into the classroom.

The problem is not gun ownership. In Finland, 50% of all households own at least one gun, and their gun related homicide rate is only .87%. By contrast, the US with a mere 42% of all households owning guns has a gun related homicide rate of something like 6.7%.

Finland has a free press, too; so its not Maggie's liberal media which is responsible for this disparity. US society has some deep problems, in case no one has noticed.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by marichiko

The Amish don't beleive in guns.

I don't believe that to be true for the Lancaster, County, PA Amish. It's my understanding that they hunt.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by marichiko

The problem is not gun ownership. In Finland, 50% of all households own at least one gun, and their gun related homicide rate is only .87%. By contrast, the US with a mere 42% of all households owning guns has a gun related homicide rate of something like 6.7%.

Finland has a free press, too; so its not Maggie's liberal media which is responsible for this disparity. US society has some deep problems, in case no one has noticed.

The United States problems include the drug trade, lack of family structure, and unlike Finland, we do not have a homogenous population.

I do wonder what the homicide statistics would look like if you removed all drug-related shootings ... probably a lot closer to Finland's number.

[WabUfvot5]

Originally Posted by wolf

The United States problems include the drug trade, lack of family structure, and unlike Finland, we do not have a homogenous population.

I do wonder what the homicide statistics would look like if you removed all drug-related shootings ... probably a lot closer to Finland's number.

There are some interesting stats gleaned from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime:

Drug offences:
Norway = 987.1 per 100,000 people
United States = 560.1 per 100,000 people
Finland = 259.7 per 100,000 people
United Kingdom = 214.3 per 100,000 people

I can't imagine Norway or Finland more adept and providing their own drugs than the USA. So the drugs have to be getting there somehow.

Now look at murders with firearms per capita:

Colombia = 0.509801 per 1,000 people (it's safe to say that's largely drug related)
United States = 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
Canada = 0.00502972 per 1,000 people

Finland does not even make the list. Either it's statistically insignificant or they don't differentiate by murder tool. They do however have 0.0283362 murders per 1,000 people. Yes, their total murders per capita is only slightly higher than the firearm murders per capita of the USA. Total murders per capita in USA is 0.042802 per 1,000 people. Norway 0.0106684 per 1,000 people. Drugs trade looks a very unspecioius claim in light of those facts.

Canada certainly isn't more homogenous. From the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development we learn that in the year 2000 the USA ranks #6 in immigration with 10.4% its populations immigrants. Canada has 17.4%.

[WabUfvot5]

Originally Posted by marichiko

US society has some deep problems, in case no one has noticed.

Michael Moore did but people would rather focus on his weight or liberal bias

[slang]

Originally Posted by BigV

Are you saying that I, a citizen who is not armed, am MORE likely to be a criminal than you, who are legally armed?

Maggie is certainly capable of a reply but I thought I might throw my thoughts in here.

When a person carries a firearm legally with a permit, it changes you and how you might do things.

First off, the last thing that you would like is some type violent confrontation because regardless of the circumstances, YOU will be going to jail. That might be a short stay or a long one but until there is some type of investigation to establish your innocence, you'll probably be in the cooler.

Your vulnerability is no longer from physical attack and you dont want any legal troubles so you tend not to get overly upset. Yelling, screaming any hostile body language tends to disappear from your normal routine ( if it ever was present before ). You dont want to be misunderstood or to appear threatening in a situation that is not threatening your life ( which is 99.99% of them ), so you might over communicate and pay more attention to your tone.

In short, you're a wonderful smiley, polite person that has had check after check after check to make sure that you are up to the responsibility of carrying a firearm that might well be enough to wipe out your neighbors and in some cases, give law enforcement a run for their money.

The armed citizen is also not panicked in situations that may if someone is NOT carrying. If you feel totally vulnerable, it changes your attitude. Many times it makes people act overly aggressive as a defense.

Just my observations here. No citations or criminal studies.

Gun toters less likely to be a criminal? Probably. Just from the background check alone. Someone that knows how to avoid troubles of all sorts? Absolutely.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by slang

...In short, you're a wonderful smiley, polite person that has had check after check after check to make sure that you are up to the responsibility of carrying a firearm that might well be enough to wipe out your neighbors and in some cases, give law enforcement a run for their money.
...

And who may be secretly planning to murder some nice innocent Amish girls...

[slang]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

And who may be secretly planning to murder some nice innocent Amish girls...

Did he have a permit to carry a handgun? You tell me, I dont know.

[wolf]

Amish County, Amish School, but plain old shooter with a mysterious grudge.

The location of the incident is interesting, but irrelevant. Until they know more about the shooter's motivation, the notion of a "school shooting" is not really what we have here, except in the sense that it occured in a school. The shooter was some guy ... a milk truck driver, not a student at the school, not even an age mate.

[wolf]

PEOPLE who don't deserve it.

[morethanpretty]

And it was clear from interviews with his co-workers at the dairy that his mood had darkened in recent days and he had stopped chatting and joking around with fellow employees and customers, the officer said.

If I had started behaving this way my co-workers and customers would have called the phsyc immediately. If people cared more about each other (even those they don't particularly know) then we probably wouldn't have so many problems with crimes related to mental instablility. But its all in retrospect sometimes. :-(