What it means to be an American

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by skysidhe

Double household incomes are the only way to own a home.

Fixed that.

We don't talk about how much we make, but we judge people by what they own and are able to buy.

We concern ourselves with the materials, not what people do with them. It is not where the person goes, but the car, not the music, but the pricey instrument, not the writing/images/code, but the computer hardware and how fast it is.

We strive to isolate people behind bars, both criminals (in jail) and ourselves (in gated, secure communities).

We set aside one day a year to remember those that fought for our freedoms. The rest of the year, we fight to give up those freedoms because we feel threatened.

[richlevy]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

We set aside one day a year to remember those that fought for our freedoms. The rest of the year, we fight to give up those freedoms because we feel threatened.

Brilliant! Not to sound snarky, but is that your quote? It's the most succint commentary on the current situation that I can find.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by richlevy

Brilliant! Not to sound snarky, but is that your quote? It's the most succint commentary on the current situation that I can find.

Yeah, although similar commentary probably exists elsewhere. I cannot be the only person that finds the irony of thanking the soldiers for dying our freedoms while so many shout "we're at war, we have to make sacrifices".

[xoxoxoBruce]

Sounds cookie worthy to me.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

We set aside one day a year to remember those that fought for our freedoms. The rest of the year, we fight to give up those freedoms because we feel threatened.

Seems to me that most of the "surrendered freedoms" I hear people Cassandra-ing about of late are "freedoms" that people never actually had but have suddenly found sorely lacking, now that there's somebody they want to blame it on.

Personally, I feel just about as free as I did before 9/11 and PATRIOT. Maybe I'm just not yearning for the right kind of freedoms to generate the "police state" paranoia that's so fashionable these days.

What worries me are the people who want to disarm me in the hopes that if they do fewer outlaw kids will shoot each other (and anybody else standing nearby) over drugs, money and women.

It's cheaper than putting them in prison the first time they commit a crime. And after all, society is to blame.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Personally, I feel just about as free as I did before 9/11 and PATRIOT.

I sure as hell don't, when the government can illegally listen to my phone calls and illegally read my emails, then pass any illegally gleaned information to another law enforcement agency who can LEGALLY use that illegally obtained information to prosecute me.

Now obviously amateur radio stations can be used to pass sensitive information to terrorists and should be confiscated. That's not much of a stretch. Wouldn't affect me in the least but I think you'd change your tune, damn quick.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I sure as hell don't, when the government can illegally listen to my phone calls...

See, that's what I mean.

Which of your phone calls are likely illegally listened to? Do you regularly receive calls from suspected overseas terrorists? Domestic calls are not "listened to".

I remeber when I read that when monitoring an international call made by a non-US national being surveillied that NSA had to immediately cease if they figured out the other party was a US national. Seemed kinda extreme. These days, with how difficult it is to identify who the called party is, it's even more so.

And you do remeber the Clipper Chip, right? :-)

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

...and illegally read my emails...

I hate to break it to you, but plaintext email has never been anything close to secure.

If that worries you, you should encrypt it.; many people do.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Now obviously amateur radio stations can be used to pass sensitive information to terrorists and should be confiscated. That's not much of a stretch. Wouldn't affect me in the least but I think you'd change your tune, damn quick.

Which is exactly why radio amateurs radio operators have *always* been forbidden encrypt any of their messages...this is not new. They are also subject to stringent controls as to which country's nationals can pass messages though amateur radio.

FCC doesn't have to seize my radios to shut me down, all they need to do is lift my licence.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

Which of your phone calls are likely illegally listened to?

How is "likely" relevant?

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

How is "likely" relevant?

Because he's not going to know if one is *actually* listened to. Unless he gets busted because of something he says, of course.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

See, that's what I mean.

Which of your phone calls are likely illegally listened to? Do you regularly receive calls from suspected overseas terrorists? Domestic calls are not "listened to".

Bullshit

I remeber when I read that when monitoring an international call made by a non-US national being surveillied that NSA had to immediately cease if they figured out the other party was a US national. Seemed kinda extreme. These days, with how difficult it is to identify who the called party is, it's even more so.

Bullshit

And you do remeber the Clipper Chip, right? :-)

No

I hate to break it to you, but plain text email has never been anything close to secure.

If that worries you, you should encrypt it.; many people do.

That only keeps the general public at bay and attracts the government decoders.

Which is exactly why radio amateurs radio operators have *always* been forbidden encrypt any of their messages...this is not new. They are also subject to stringent controls as to which country's nationals can pass messages though amateur radio.

There are many ways to hide messages in plain text or language.

FCC doesn't have to seize my radios to shut me down, all they need to do is lift my licence.

Yeah sure, and if they lift my carry permit I can't take a gun to somebodies house and shoot them. C'mon, get real here.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No

Well, look it up. Under "Clinton administration", if that helps.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That only keeps the general public at bay and attracts the government decoders.

Which is why good old Phil Zimmerman advocated everybody doing it all the time.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

There are many ways to hide messages in plain text or language.

And even more in digital data. HF radio used to have significance in international intelligence; it doesn't anymore. For one thing, it requires somebody who knows what they're doing on both ends to use it.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Yeah sure, and if they lift my carry permit I can't take a gun to somebodies house and shoot them. C'mon, get real here.

Get real indeed. Do you advocate gun confiscation too?

I'm more worried about liberals trying to take stuff away from me ("..as representatives of The Common Good", as Hilary said); they spend all their time talking about it. Take a look at that Google sketch-up thread...the very first words out of tw's mouth when he found out I was a ham was about whether my neighbors would prevent me from erecting antennas.

Collectivists...*sigh*

I don't think Bush wants my radios. He seems to understand they're more valuable to him (and everybody else) in my hands.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

HF radio used to have significance in international intelligence; it doesn't anymore. For one thing, it requires somebody who knows what they're doing on both ends to use it.

Uh...wha? You need to tune around above/below 12 and 30 meters sometime! 17 836 20 191 65...

73s.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I sure as hell don't, when the government can illegally listen to my phone calls and illegally read my emails, then pass any illegally gleaned information to another law enforcement agency who can LEGALLY use that illegally obtained information to prosecute me.

Some people just love and trust big government implicitly, which is something I'll never understand given the track record of the three letter agencies and politicians that will be dealing with the information. They subscribe to the logic of "If you've done nothing wrong..." because they feel it could not possibly affect their lives. So, if it it isn't affecting them, it can't possibly affect anyone else as innocent and as shining of a citizen. So, what's the big deal? It isn't as if the government would ever use these powers for nefarious activities. Nooo, they would never do that. Because, of course, we are at war* and we have to feel comfortable with these measures until it ends**. So please, don't think of phone record collecting or warrantless wiretaps as "spying on citizens", think of it as an ever-vigilant, protective family member always at your side. An "older brother", if you will.

There really are times when I hope these people that have given into the irrational fear get the government they desire.


* - not really. Should Congress ever actually declare it, we'd have to cough up the cash to give full benefits to soldiers and, of all things, follow certain rules of engagement.

** - the "war on terrorism" will last as long as terrorism does. You figure it out.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I sure as hell don't, when the government can illegally listen to my phone calls and illegally read my emails, then pass any illegally gleaned information to another law enforcement agency who can LEGALLY use that illegally obtained information to prosecute me.

Now obviously amateur radio stations can be used to pass sensitive information to terrorists and should be confiscated. That's not much of a stretch. Wouldn't affect me in the least but I think you'd change your tune, damn quick.

If they can illegally do as they please so can I... they guy who comes for me dies, I feel bad for his family, but not bad enough, he and the government chooses it. It is very simple. I am a patriot.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

If they can illegally do as they please so can I... they guy who comes for me dies, I feel bad for his family, but not bad enough, he and the government chooses it. It is very simple. I am a patriot.

Bad Boy, Bad Boy, whatcha gonna do?
Whatcha gonna do when they send an Apache Longbow or an A-10 Warthog, or a Stryker for you?