Look Everybody We're East Berlin, Pre-Wall Topple! - Page 5

Happy Monkey · 05-17-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Typically we don't know what was leaked and in this case we have no idea whatsoever.

Then don't try to put some blanket "we're in favor of leakers this week" statement on it.

Urbane Guerrilla · 05-29-2006, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla
We need to get rid of the Bill of Rights in order to preserve our stance of world conquest and domestic terror.

Marichiko, that is the last fucking straw: you are lying in a quote box, deliberately. You have no ethics left. Deep shame on you.

How many other obviously stupid things do you do in a single day?

PM sent. If that doesn't do it, I'll find something that will.

MaggieL · 05-17-2006, 04:23 PM

Anybody here watch Law and Order? Especially the original series (as opposed to the D'Onofrio Overacting Seminar :-) ).

How many times have you heard Lenny or one of his colleagues say "We pulled his LUDs and it shows a call to blah at blah woof...".

Had you assumed he'd gotten a warrant for that? Considering how they usually make a big deal about getting a search warrant under other circumstances, or at least conspicuously mentioning that they'd gotten one, I hadn't.

But in this case, I'll bet USC Title 18 Chapter 121 § 2709 (or something like it) applies. I guess we'll be finding out.

warch · 05-17-2006, 04:37 PM

The tighter the control, and the secrecy, the more rampant the leaks- good ones and bad ones, big ones and little ones, ones to aid the good guys and the bad guys.

I'll settle for a return to the illusion of some degree of governmental transparency, even during wartime, even a little, with constitutional checks on executive power.

Get a warrant. work with FISA.

Undertoad · 05-22-2006, 08:35 AM

Ooh, now that is a foul statement.

BigV · 05-22-2006, 02:57 PM

GodDAMMIT!!

Let's just get the teensy generous part of my rant out of the way first, shall we?

AG AG is a prosecutor. I understand that. His freakin job is to take people to court, to presume guilt, to focus on wrongdoing and wrongdoers. He's a lawman. No bad guys--his kids go hungry. Fine. His motivations are clear. When you are a hammer, the whole world looks like nails

However.

The ends do not justify the means.

There are so many things wrong indicated in his statement, it makes my head spin. First off, it is not his place to pretend that one "right" has precedence over another right. Note the quotes. "right" == "[Alberto gonzales]...the right that Americans would like to see, the ability of the federal government to go after criminal activity." Contrasted with the right == ""[Framers of the Constitution]...the protection under the First Amendment..."

WTF?!

You, Gonzales, you are responsible for trying to create a distracting smokescreen by falsely suggesting that in order for the government "go after criminal activity" it is permissible or necessary to disregard the First Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States. That is lying by implication. It is *neither* necessary nor permissible.

You are a lawman. Why would you consider breaking one part of the law to uphold another part of the law? That didn't come out exactly right...I mean to disregard the protection written in the law covering the behavior you claim is criminal. The cynic in me can think of several reasons. It's easier, it suits your boss's agenda, it's habitual, you *truly, truly, cross your heart* believe what you said...

Tough. Because it makes things easier is no excuse. You weren't elected (appointed) because it's an easy job. It's not ok to cut corners. Stop it. Because your boss told you so is also insufficient. You've no obligation to obey illegal orders, capisce? I won't derail my own rant to examine the long list of his problems, but you should use your own judgement here and decide if *our country* is better served in the long run by this kind of attitude. I say emphatically no. Because that's the way it's always been done. Well, when you're doing the wrong thing, doing more of it is no way to make things better. Just stop digging. Lastly, you *may* have drunk the kool aid. I suspect you have. And that makes me sorry for you and sad for our country.

I am no anarchist. I believe in the law. It is that very belief that is the fount of my tears and the fire of my anger when I see the display of attitudes and actions of intelligent people in postitions of responsibility like this that tear our country down from within. You don't preserve, uphold and defend the Constitution by ignoring the parts you don't wipe your feet on. When you weaken it this way, by not respecting it and working within its constraints, you help win it for the bad guys by making it less, less valid, less important, less alive.

05-22-2006, 05:12 PM

We have met the enemy and he is us - Walt Kelly (Pogo)

C.I.A. Choice Says He's Independent of the Pentagon

By MARK MAZZETTI
In a hearing that put him on track to win swift confirmation, Gen. Michael V. Hayden also defended an eavesdropping program.

05-24-2006, 12:20 AM

With a weed-eater.

Urbane Guerrilla · 05-30-2006, 02:16 AM

Mjohn, I've more experience of NSA than you do, both NAVSECGRU and civilian. I came to the opposite conclusion: that those guys are too busy at their secretive jobs to do such conspiracy-theory stuff. They haven't time for it; they just don't think that way, from Special Executive Service down to the cleared janitorial personnel.

Skunks · 06-01-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Mjohn, I've more experience of NSA than you do, both NAVSECGRU and civilian. I came to the opposite conclusion: that those guys are too busy at their secretive jobs to do such conspiracy-theory stuff. They haven't time for it; they just don't think that way, from Special Executive Service down to the cleared janitorial personnel.

I always thought the point wasn't that they did it in their free time; rather, that their secretive job was the stuff we make conspiracy theories over.

warch · 05-31-2006, 07:10 PM

I had a chance to meet Mr. Franken and found him to be a highly decent, thoughtful and patriotic man. He was very kind. I'll stick with my direct assessment over your mediated rabid spin. I think your fears (the great many of them) that fuel your energies, are unfortunately misplaced. There is plenty out there to fear, but I am not sweating Al Franken.

Urbane Guerrilla · 06-01-2006, 01:14 AM

Fear Al Franken? Come now, cannot one of you get it right?

Contempt is not to be confused with fear. I think Al, on the basis of such of his words I read before disgust overtook me (I have a strong stomach, so I wasn't taking the trip to Rising Gorge) is unwise, and quite the Big Fat Idiot. Unwise idiots are not to be feared, but to be rebutted, scotched, and defeated.

Monkey, some free advice: don't indulge in slander you can't substantiate. The Left's habit of doing that is a central reason the Left is too stupid for me.

Happy Monkey · 06-01-2006, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Monkey, some free advice: don't indulge in slander you can't substantiate.

I don't.

tw · 06-01-2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Monkey, some free advice: don't indulge in slander you can't substantiate. The Left's habit of doing that is a central reason the Left is too stupid for me.

Urbane Guerrilla just graduated from the Rush Limbaugh school of logic and international analysis. When caught lying, then attack the messenger.

Urbane Guerrilla · 06-05-2006, 06:03 PM

I never take RichLevy too seriously. His writings never give me reason to.

I want the war won. Rich doesn't want it as much as I do, and so conspicuously that I wonder if he wants it won at all. Puts the poop in nincompoop, I tell ya.

05-17-2006, 04:23 PM	#3
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	Anybody here watch Law and Order? Especially the original series (as opposed to the D'Onofrio Overacting Seminar :-) ). How many times have you heard Lenny or one of his colleagues say "We pulled his LUDs and it shows a call to blah at blah woof...". Had you assumed he'd gotten a warrant for that? Considering how they usually make a big deal about getting a search warrant under other circumstances, or at least *conspicuously mentioning* that they'd gotten one, I hadn't. But in this case, I'll bet USC Title 18 Chapter 121 § 2709 (or something like it) applies. I guess we'll be finding out. __________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..."

05-22-2006, 02:57 PM	#6
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	**GodDAMMIT!!** Let's just get the teensy generous part of my rant out of the way first, shall we? AG AG is a prosecutor. I understand that. His freakin job is to take people to court, to presume guilt, to focus on wrongdoing and wrongdoers. He's a lawman. No bad guys--his kids go hungry. Fine. His motivations are clear. When you are a hammer, the whole world looks like nails However. The ends do not justify the means. There are so many things wrong indicated in his statement, it makes my head spin. First off, it is not his place to pretend that one "right" has precedence over another right. Note the quotes. "right" == "[Alberto gonzales]...the right that Americans would like to see, the ability of the federal government to go after criminal activity." Contrasted with the right == ""[Framers of the Constitution]...the protection under the First Amendment..." WTF?! You, Gonzales, you are responsible for trying to create a distracting smokescreen by falsely suggesting that in order for the government "go after criminal activity" it is permissible or necessary to disregard the First Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States. That is lying by implication. It is neither necessary nor permissible. You are a lawman. Why would you consider breaking one part of the law to uphold another part of the law? That didn't come out exactly right...I mean to disregard the protection written in the law covering the behavior you claim is criminal. The cynic in me can think of several reasons. It's easier, it suits your boss's agenda, it's habitual, you truly, truly, cross your heart believe what you said... Tough. Because it makes things easier is no excuse. You weren't elected (appointed) because it's an easy job. It's not ok to cut corners. Stop it. Because your boss told you so is also insufficient. You've no obligation to obey illegal orders, capisce? I won't derail my own rant to examine the long list of his problems, but you should use your own judgement here and decide if our country is better served in the long run by this kind of attitude. I say emphatically no. Because that's the way it's always been done. Well, when you're doing the wrong thing, doing more of it is no way to make things better. Just stop digging. Lastly, you may have drunk the kool aid. I suspect you have. And that makes me sorry for you and sad for our country. I am no anarchist. I believe in the law. It is that very belief that is the fount of my tears and the fire of my anger when I see the display of attitudes and actions of intelligent people in postitions of responsibility like this that tear our country down from within. You don't preserve, uphold and defend the Constitution by ignoring the parts you don't wipe your feet on. When you weaken it this way, by not respecting it and working within its constraints, you help win it for the bad guys by making it less, less valid, less important, less alive. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

05-30-2006, 02:16 AM	#9
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Mjohn, I've more experience of NSA than you do, both NAVSECGRU and civilian. I came to the opposite conclusion: that those guys are too busy at their secretive jobs to do such conspiracy-theory stuff. They haven't time for it; they just don't think that way, from Special Executive Service down to the cleared janitorial personnel. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

06-01-2006, 01:14 AM	#12
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Fear Al Franken? Come now, cannot one of you get it right? Contempt is not to be confused with fear. I think Al, on the basis of such of his words I read before disgust overtook me (I have a strong stomach, so I wasn't taking the trip to Rising Gorge) is unwise, and quite the Big Fat Idiot. Unwise idiots are not to be feared, but to be rebutted, scotched, and defeated. Monkey, some free advice: don't indulge in slander you can't substantiate. The Left's habit of doing that is a central reason the Left is too stupid for me. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

06-05-2006, 06:03 PM	#15
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	I never take RichLevy too seriously. His writings never give me reason to. I want the war won. Rich doesn't want it as much as I do, and so conspicuously that I wonder if he wants it won at all. Puts the poop in nincompoop, I tell ya. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

05-17-2006, 04:37 PM	#4
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	The tighter the control, and the secrecy, the more rampant the leaks- good ones and bad ones, big ones and little ones, ones to aid the good guys and the bad guys. I'll settle for a return to the illusion of some degree of governmental transparency, even during wartime, even a little, with constitutional checks on executive power. Get a warrant. work with FISA.

05-22-2006, 08:35 AM	#5
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Ooh, now that is a foul statement.

05-22-2006, 05:12 PM	#7
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	We have met the enemy and he is us - Walt Kelly (Pogo) C.I.A. Choice Says He's Independent of the Pentagon By MARK MAZZETTI In a hearing that put him on track to win swift confirmation, Gen. Michael V. Hayden also defended an eavesdropping program.

05-24-2006, 12:20 AM	#8
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	With a weed-eater.

05-31-2006, 07:10 PM	#11
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	I had a chance to meet Mr. Franken and found him to be a highly decent, thoughtful and patriotic man. He was very kind. I'll stick with my direct assessment over your mediated rabid spin. I think your fears (the great many of them) that fuel your energies, are unfortunately misplaced. There is plenty out there to fear, but I am not sweating Al Franken.

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