I defaulted to politics on this one, I was torn.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Many times people ask me

"If God is a loving God, why does he allow suffering?"

(this is one I get from Jews alot) "God is eternal and unchanging. If Jesus was really the Messiah, then by definition, God changed the rules. That is not who God is, so Jesus was not the Messiah."

"I can't get behind a religion that scares people into believing."


These are all examples of people who haven't read the material, or at very least have a poor understanding of it. What other reasons have you given (or heard) that people use as an excuse not to believe? (This does not include people who flat out admit they don't want to believe because they simply don't want to. I'm talking about people who say they are seeking but give excuses.)

The Holocaust. You can make every argument you please, but that one is the deal breaker for me. A personal god who presided over that is the devil and he gets no allegiance from me. BTW, WHOSE material? God's? On what proof, other than your belief?

[wolf]

You sure the big guy wasn't pissed at the Chosen People for turning their backs on his boy?*


* If I believed in Hell (rather than Hel) I would probably be burning in it for merely offering this suggestion ...

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by wolf

You sure the big guy wasn't pissed at the Chosen People for turning their backs on his boy?*


* If I believed in Hell (rather than Hel) I would probably be burning in it for merely offering this suggestion ...

Others than the Jews met their ends - gypsies, the disabled, political prisoners, etc. So, the big guy had it in for them, too?

[wolf]

He is a jealous god, or so I hear.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

You want to start quoting the Bible now?

I quote the bible all of the time, as a matter of fact I used it extensively in an article I wrote about people trying to ban Harry Potter from public schools.

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

Are you mad.

Am I mad? I'm not even mildly upset. As to the allusion to insanity, I've been called pathologically sane by some people. I guess they are referring to the fact that nobody else they know can be so dispassionate or unemotional. Who knows?

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

First off I was refering specifically to the Gospels. Although there are moments in John that are a bit puritanical, there are many other instances, especially in Luke, Mark and Matthew that are beautiful treatises on compassion and good will. It's what one sees in anything is the issue here. Some see a bunch of holy rollers expressing self-rightegousness and damnation to all those who don't believe, but that's not what I see.

I will agree that those things can be found there, but you cannot deny the abuse, intolerance, prejudice, discrimination, misogyny, etc that they contain as well.

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

As far as Hebrews is concerned, if you know anything about Judeo-Christian docrtine percieving the Gospels as part of the Bible, God is vengeful and Jesus is merciful, it's a balancing act. If you look closely the appearance of Jesus is signifigant because it rails against convential Jewish dogma as it stood at that time.

So you're saying that the religious doctrine changed to meet the political needs of the times.

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

Either a construction or fact, for one to read the Bible and constantly outline and highlight the parts of condemation is still short sighted and pesimistic.

*presto chango*

Either a construction or fact, for one to read the Bible and constantly outline and highlight the parts of absolution is still short sighted and optimistic.

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

As someone who has been through the Catholic school system, I should be the one tearing down Jesus, or God, but I refuse. I was taught the Bible since I was 5 or 6, and I still feel the same about it today.

So you're willing to admit to a great amount of intellecual inertia and naivete.

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

I was told by countless nuns that I was going to hell, many times quoting passages from John, but I refuse to submit to such condemnation.

Why aren't willing to accept that the people who are willing to submit their lives to the doctrine you so willingly admit to may be right considering that they're whole life is qrapped up in discovering its mysteries?

They have the same, or better, resources to draw from, as well as more time to devote to such endeavors.

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

I do my best to treat people as noted in these religious teachings, not out of fear for my soul, but out of the compelling nature of the teachings and the way they touched my heart, plain and simple.

It does no good to only apply the warm fuzzy parts of your doctrine. It states very clearly and in many places how you are to treat the non-believer.

I haven't had to run anybody from my property for hurling stones yet.

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

Accordingly, if you look at the sum of Jesus' teachings, he wanted people to love each other because we are all God's children, in effect no different than him, only difference being he had to die for the sins of others. The pain and suffering of Christ is also an area of great inspiration, many condemed others in his name, but Christ always had mercy on those who "knew not what they did"


-Walrus

As touching as it may be, it doesn't work for me on too many levels. I understand social engineering when I see it. I see ethnic ideological justification, and all of the other things I mentioned before.

If such a doctrine works for you that is fine, but I set higher intellectual standards for myself. I don't mean this as a condemnation (much) but if you want to have faith I'm happy for you. Don't try to rationalize it within the framework of your own doctrine. A word cannot be used in its own definition.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

The Holocaust. You can make every argument you please, but that one is the deal breaker for me. A personal god who presided over that is the devil and he gets no allegiance from me. BTW, WHOSE material? God's? On what proof, other than your belief?

Let me preface by saying the Holocaust was a horrible horrible thing and I am not trying to minimize it in any way by the following thoughts.

Throughout Jewish history, from the Flood in Genesis and wandering in Exodus through present day, when Jews turned away from God, bad things happened to them. Every single time, more than just Jews were affected. This holds true for the Holocaust as well.

The political situation in Germany was extremely unstable. The writings of Trotsky and Lenin reveal the efforts that the 'communist international' was putting into Germany. Everyone was sure that Germany was the next country to go communist.

In this climate, suddenly, small nationalist folk parties started to spring up. All of them had similar agendas on their platform: Democracy had to go to get some law and order back again. These parties claimed that it was not that Germany lost World War I; rather, the boys on the front lines had the rug pulled out from under their feet.

Who did that? Those wheelers and dealers back home - the Jews.

That's a teeny bit of the historical account of "why the Jews?".

So where is God in all of this? Nature takes its course. Some people get lucky, some get unlucky. But God seems to take a back seat.

It's so easy to feel this way about the world. But it's completely incorrect.

Firstly, on a philosophical level, if you believe God to be infinite then He cannot take a back seat. He is the active element of all that exists and all that happens. A cancer cell cannot grow without God willing it to grow.

On a relationship level, God is our father. He loves us as a father loves a child - and more so, because He works in infinites.

No loving father, were he able to prevent it, would allow his child to be left to the random happenings of this world. Any loving father who could prevent his child from sickness, accident, pain, would surely do so. The same loving father might actively cause his child pain in order to help him grow. But no father would randomly and meaninglessly allow his child to suffer.

You can believe in no God or you can believe in a pagan god. But if you are a believer in the Jewish God, you must believe that He is intimately involved in all that happens in our lives. And if what happens is cancer, then not only does He know about it, He makes it happen.

Why He makes bad things happen is the point of a different discussion that I hope to deal with in a future article. But the starting point is seeing and feeling God's direct involvement in your life. The more you see and feel Him on a day to day basis, the more you will be able to see and feel Him in times of challenge.

That's a quote by Rabbi Shaul Rosenblatt.

If Jews can get past the Holocaust, so can you.

[Beestie]

And if what happens is [some bad thing], then not only does He know about it, He makes it happen.

According to the Rabbi, then, God makes people do harm to others? I think not. Or, perhaps the Rabbi meant that, by failing to prevent the harm that a person intends to inflict upon another that God implicitly "made it happen." So, if I understand the Rabbi, he contends that either God makes people do bad things OR that God gave us free will but then disallows us to exercise it in a manner inconsistent with his wishes.

Since the Rabbi is a respected and learned theological scholar and I am anything but, I will assume that I do not understand his point.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If Jews can get past the Holocaust, so can you.

Actually, no. Individual members of the Jewish faith may make whatever mental accomodations they feel they need to in order to reconcile a belief in a personal god along with the Holocaust.

I, however, do not. Any hypothetical supreme being is more than welcome to drop by the lab for a cup of bad coffee and a long talk in which he explains himself (or attempts to). Until such time, he'll get no belief from me.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Schrodinger's Cat

Actually, no. Individual members of the Jewish faith may make whatever mental accomodations they feel they need to in order to reconcile a belief in a personal god along with the Holocaust.

I, however, do not. Any hypothetical supreme being is more than welcome to drop by the lab for a cup of bad coffee and a long talk in which he explains himself (or attempts to). Until such time, he'll get no belief from me.

Why do bad things happen?

This includes the Holocaust, Tsunamis, cancer, murder, accidents, birth defects, etc etc etc.

I could get all long winded about sin and free will and choice and all that stuff, but the bottom line is this:

Bad things happen because we live in a fallen world. We had our shot at paradise and Adam and Even blew it for everyone.

God "allows" bad things to happen because it is the consequence of original sin, which was disobeying him in the first place. "If you touch that, you will be burned. See? Told you."

Some people believe that the scriptures say that the "tribulation" is going to make the Holocaust look like a walk in the park.

I'm sorry you're mad at God. That doesn't make him less real.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

I quote the bible all of the time, as a matter of fact I used it extensively in an article I wrote about people trying to ban Harry Potter from public schools.

Are you trying to ban Harry Potter or are you fighting against a ban of Harry Potter?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Are you trying to ban Harry Potter or are you fighting against a ban of Harry Potter?

I'm against the banning of of the Potter books.

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

I'm sorry you're mad at God. That doesn't make him less real.

No, you've got that backwards. I don't think god is real. Therefore, there's nothing to be mad at except, possibly, man's inhumanity to man.

At any rate, believe away if that makes you happy. I make it a rule not to argue matters of belief, so I'm outta this part of the discussion.