Bush documents faked?

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Don't forget the war Bush was avoiding was morally wrong, while the Bush crusade is Gods will.

Oh, silly me! How could I have forgotten that point!

Originally Posted by Wolf

What did you think of Clinton, then?

Honestly? Not much. I didn't even vote for him.

Originally Posted by Wolf

Military service became a "nonissue" for his campaign, and is apparently the ONLY issue for this one.

Well, my memory brown-out started sometime around the Clinton era, but I don't seem to recall Clinton getting us into any engagements where 1,000 plus and counting of our young men have been killed. Correct me if I've forgetten about some other war that occurred during Clinton's tenure in the White House.

Originally Posted by Wolf

Kerry the anti-war protestor has positioned himself as Kerry the War Hero for the purpose of campaigning. Apparently this has been a tactic of his for as long as he's been running.

Frankly, I think it's stupid.

There were many anti-war protestors who had gone to 'Nam and seen it for the dirty little war it was and came back to join the rest of us in the streets. My friend who fought honorably in the First Gulf War is disgusted by this current round now going on. I don't see what's so out of the ordinary about Kerry's stance. And BTW, the naval reserves were very different from the National Guard. Men who joined the reserves in the 60's knew damn well they stood a good chance of being called up for active service.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I keep having this recurring dream where Jenna and Laura are asking me to put on my shades, and what's in the secret sauce

Surely you mean Jenna and Barbara, NBN? Laura is their mother.

He into the MILF thing.

[xoxoxoBruce]

the naval reserves were very different from the National Guard. Men who joined the reserves in the 60's knew damn well they stood a good chance of being called up for active service.

I may be wrong but I thought Kerry, after some time in the reserves, volunteered for active duty.

[wolf]

in re: Clinton ...

Bosnia and Somalia spring immediately to mind.

Edited to add:

Looks like the Brookings Institute already did the math for me, at least in part.

Originally Posted by wolf

in re: Clinton ...

Bosnia and Somalia spring immediately to mind.

Edited to add:

Looks like the Brookings Institute already did the math for me, at least in part.

There you go. I had completely forgotten about Bosnia. Still I don't think either Bosnia or Somalia were of quite the same magnitude as the Gulf. Will check out your Brookings Institute link. Thanks.

Just now checked the figures and what I found was 0 Bosnia, 43 Somalia. These figures do not come from some leftie web site, but one that claims to be Republican/ Libertarian:
http://www.insultsunpunished.com/arc...lties-in-iraq/

I think you're compairing apples with oranges, Wolf. In my humble opinion.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by marichiko

There you go. I had completely forgotten about Bosnia. Still I don't think either Bosnia or Somalia were of quite the same magnitude as the Gulf. Will check out your Brookings Institute link. Thanks.

clinton liked to send "peace keeping forces" all over the world so that nobody realized we were shooting at people. if it ended up in the news and didn't poll well he pulled us out. a lot of haitians and skinnies ended up dead in our "non combat" operations.

[Undertoad]

The forgery story continues and it's fascinating. I am now utterly 100% convinced of the fakery.

This explanation from a pioneer in desktop publishing goes into great detail about fonts and pseudo-kerning to explain why the memos were definitely (and obviously, to the expert eye) produced on a Windows-based computer. And then he points out Occam's razor and how deadly it is in this case...

So we have the following two hypotheses contending for describing the memos

* Attempts to recreate the memos using Microsoft Word and Times New Roman produce images so close that even taking into account the fact that the image we were able to download from the CBS site has been copied, scanned, downloaded, and reprinted, the errors between the "authentic" document and a file created by anyone using Microsoft word are virtually indistinguishable.
* The font existed in 1972; there were technologies in 1972 that could, with elaborate effort, reproduce these memos, and these technologies and the skills to use them were used by someone who, by testimony of his own family, never typed anything, in an office that for all its other documents appears to have used ordinary monospaced typewriters, and therefore this unlikely juxtaposition of technologies and location coincided just long enough to produce these four memos on 04-May-1972, 18-May-1972, 01-August-1972, and 18-August-1973.

Which one do you think is true? Which one would a 13th-century philosopher think made sense? How many totally unlikely other juxtapositions are expected to be true? How could anyone believe these memos are other than incompetent forgeries?

The hoax itself says nothing about the politics involved, nothing about Bush, Kerry or either of their campaigns. It says a TON about CBS News, Dan Rather, and the nature of the collective wisdom of the Internet. CBS claimed the documents to be honest from day one, and faced with evidence they were bogus, a CBS News exec attacked the bloggers.

Mr. Klein dismissed the bloggers who are raising questions about the authenticity of the memos: "You couldn't have a starker contrast between the multiple layers of check and balances [at '60 Minutes'] and a guy sitting in his living room in his pajamas writing."

The top people at CBS News do not even understand the process. 10,000 guys in pajamas are far smarter than '60 Minutes'. It's not the bloggers themselves that have the ability to fact-check things; it's the collective wisdom of the Internet, in which if you bring together a community and let them communicate well, you will find a tremendous amount of expertise.

So today James Lileks uses this image to open his daily Bleat. And I think, but I'm not sure, that the typeface he uses is an IBM Selectric Composer's proportional font, perhaps even the one closest to, but not exactly, Times New Roman.

[iamthewalrus109]

In reference to this controversy, ie. the 60 minutes II debacle, the talk of forgery only helps the Bush camp legitimize his service even more. With the prospect of these documents being fakes, it takes away from the fact that he skipped service in Vietnam. Now it makes him look almost vindicated if these documents turn out to be forgeries. No matter that the Maj. General in charge of the unit at the time said he at least filled the minimum of his duties at the time in question, that in and of itself is an indictment of his service. He was given a cushy assignment during a standing draft, and still did the least he could do, and we're not even sure of that. The point stands, his daddy got him in someplace that would keep him out of harm's way, and an honorable discharge means nothing, if the possiblity exisits that patronage, and favortism played a part in the writing of these reports. Concocting, poorly created forgeries is a foolish move, if in fact they are forgeries, it's a point for Bush, if not two. I regret to say that with only a small number of weeks remaning in this election, the major issues, barring fear, have been left to the wayside, and we as voters, bloggers, and Americans are also to blame.
Let us fight to discuss that which ails this great land.

-Walrus

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

and an honorable discharge means nothing, if the possiblity exisits that patronage, and favortism played a part in the writing of these reports.

If an honorable discharge can be questionned, than so can medals. Either both are allowed, or neither.

Let us fight to discuss that which ails this great land.

We're correcting one of its main ails, the mainstream media as arbiters of what is news and not and what is forgery and not.

[iamthewalrus109]

An honorable discharge from the Air national guard based upon administrative reports is a little different than a collection of reports in issuance of a medal. Conflicting accounts of combat are a little different than evaluation reports and summaries filed by a handful of military desk jockeys, but your right, you can call some of Kerry's medals into question, undobutely, at least it's a question of his valour in combat as oppossed to his attendence to flight trainings and logging air time.

- Walrus

PS: Questioning the mainstream media on the forgery issue is semantics. The issue should be acknowledged as parlor games, sumarily dismissed once a full review is done, and the dialouge needs to focus on briging these so called leaders, including the mainstream media, to task for today's real problems. Your right we should be questioning the media, but having a row about forgeries is doing nothing but shifting attention.

Originally Posted by iamthewalrus109

In reference to this controversy, ie. the 60 minutes II debacle, the talk of forgery only helps the Bush camp legitimize his service even more. With the prospect of these documents being fakes, it takes away from the fact that he skipped service in Vietnam. Now it makes him look almost vindicated if these documents turn out to be forgeries. No matter that the Maj. General in charge of the unit at the time said he at least filled the minimum of his duties at the time in question, that in and of itself is an indictment of his service. He was given a cushy assignment during a standing draft, and still did the least he could do, and we're not even sure of that. The point stands, his daddy got him in someplace that would keep him out of harm's way, and an honorable discharge means nothing, if the possiblity exisits that patronage, and favortism played a part in the writing of these reports. Concocting, poorly created forgeries is a foolish move, if in fact they are forgeries, it's a point for Bush, if not two. I regret to say that with only a small number of weeks remaning in this election, the major issues, barring fear, have been left to the wayside, and we as voters, bloggers, and Americans are also to blame.
Let us fight to discuss that which ails this great land.

-Walrus

Well said, Walrus, and I could not agree with you more. We have two facts: Kerry served in the active duty military and went to Vietnam. Bush took the rich boy's out and hid out in the National Guard for the duration. These are the two things we should be looking at when considering the character of the two men. Our nation faces many difficult issues. These are what we should be discussing, not some trivial details about type fonts.

[jdbutler]

Originally Posted by wolf

Guts don't have much to do with it.

Kerry signed up for the Naval Reserves, which ordinarily would have kept him out of Vietnam. He spent his first year of service on a boat off the coast of California. Getting activated to go to Vietnam appears to have come as a bit of a surprise ...

He spent four months of a one year tour IN Vietnam.

And the first month was in-country swiftboat training. Then three PH's, a bronze and silver star with the mythical "V", all amazingly awarded while incurring no hospital time, then an administrative release...all in three months! This guy thinks he's slicker than Willie, but Willie's not going to let Kerry grab control of the DNC and their cash. And besides, Bush will be releasing Bin Laden's captured or deceased butt to the public shortly before the election. Kerry can't win....*Excuses self and chases after windblown tinfoil hat*

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by jdbutler

And the first month was in-country swiftboat training. Then three PH's, a bronze and silver star with the mythical "V", all amazingly awarded while incurring no hospital time, then an administrative release...all in three months!

come on now. be fair. it was 4 months and 12 days IIRC.

[jdbutler]

I didn't count the first training month...but I'll give him the extra 12 days...just for you.

[lookout123]

you did forget to mention that when he volunteered for swift boat duty ("one of the most dangerous duties in viet nam" *ted kennedy's voice*) that swift boats were on routine coastal duties with little chance of taking fire. the mission was changed while he was at B school, or whatever the navy calls it.