50 vs. 3

garnet · 08-09-2004, 07:39 PM

I visited Auschwitz this last June when I went to Eastern Europe. I'm not Jewish, but it was still one of the most depressing places I've ever been to--really awful. Why would anyone who is anti-semitic go there in the first place? Pretty sick.

DanaC · 08-09-2004, 07:55 PM

Sometimes I think people have difficulty differentiating between their feelings towards the Israeli state or political zionism in individuals and their attitude to the Jewish diaspora as a whole. The comments the three made sounded to me more like they were angry with Israel than with the people themselves as Jews. Unfortunately they chose to express their anger towards people who were paying their respects to the long dead victims of genocide and as such their vitriol was at best misplaced and at worst revoltingly insensitive. The fact that they were at Aushwitz at all makes me wonder if they are less anti semitic and more anti Israel...Their anger at the wearing of the Israeli flag may have been someone feling offended at the political entity of Israel laying claim to all grief for the holocaust. We do not even know the ethnic or religious identity of the three Frenchmen. For all we know they could be politically left wing anti right -wing -zionist french Jews.

garnet · 08-09-2004, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Unfortunately they chose to express their anger towards people who were paying their respects to the long dead victims of genocide and as such their vitriol was at best misplaced and at worst revoltingly insensitive.

They probably went there with the intent of causing trouble. I just can't even picture the scene--when I was there we walking around like zombies, just staring. It was almost too much to take in. It doesn't get much more insensitive than what these guys did.

DanaC · 08-10-2004, 03:39 AM

Possible. Equally possible is that this is a little bit of noise created to back up Sharon's statements about French anti semitism recently. Or the incident happened.....doesnt mean it happened as that report stated. It is interesting to me that this was from the Jerusalem post. I have no real knowledge of the publication but my guess is it is pro zionist in nature. I also notice that whilst the people interviewd claimed the remarks were anti semitic in nature the only ones they published in detail were anti Israeli not anti semitic. I very much doubt these three people ( how three people can be described as a "gang" when facing a crowd of 50 I dont know) went to Auschwitz puely to cause trouble and upset Jewishfolk. More likely is that they were there to pay there respects or pay a visit to a place of historical interest and were offended by the draped Israeli flag which they percieved as a) rampant nationalism in a place which should not be tainted further with Nationalism of the present day or b) they saw the flag as indicative of political zionism which offended them because they see that as laying claim to the grief of Aushwitz, something they themselves may feel connected to. Many people in Europe are very angry with the Israeli state machine and the way political zionism is being painted as the only way to be truly Jewish. Many people are also angry at the actions of the Israeli army in Gaza and percieve those actions to be tantamount to a new form of fascism in which case the overt presence of the Israeli flag which exists currently as a symbol of that abuse, may have seemed highly offensive.

Having said that it was clearly an innappropriate response and led those people to do a fair impression of the kind of ugliness seen in racists and anti semites

Radar · 08-10-2004, 09:55 AM

Sorry Dana but 99.999% of Jews are Zionists which means if you say you hate Zionists, you're just trying to mask the fact that you hate Jews; even if you are one.. I'm not Jewish. I'm an atheist and a proud Zionist. I support the right of Israel to exist. To claim they don't have such a right is to claim that nobody has a right to exist.

99 44/100% pure · 08-10-2004, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radar

Sorry Dana but 99.999% of Jews are Zionists . . .

Do you have data on that? Do you mean worldwide? In Israel? In the US? By 'zionist' do you mean the existence of Isreal as a 'place of return' for Jewish people, or are you defending the existence of Isreal as a post WWII geopolitical entity?

08-09-2004, 07:39 PM	#1
garnet ... Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 657	I visited Auschwitz this last June when I went to Eastern Europe. I'm not Jewish, but it was still one of the most depressing places I've ever been to--really awful. Why would anyone who is anti-semitic go there in the first place? Pretty sick. Last edited by garnet; 08-09-2004 at 11:13 PM.

08-10-2004, 03:39 AM	#4
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Possible. Equally possible is that this is a little bit of noise created to back up Sharon's statements about French anti semitism recently. Or the incident happened.....doesnt mean it happened as that report stated. It is interesting to me that this was from the Jerusalem post. I have no real knowledge of the publication but my guess is it is pro zionist in nature. I also notice that whilst the people interviewd claimed the remarks were anti semitic in nature the only ones they published in detail were anti Israeli not anti semitic. I very much doubt these three people ( how three people can be described as a "gang" when facing a crowd of 50 I dont know) went to Auschwitz puely to cause trouble and upset Jewishfolk. More likely is that they were there to pay there respects or pay a visit to a place of historical interest and were offended by the draped Israeli flag which they percieved as a) rampant nationalism in a place which should not be tainted further with Nationalism of the present day or b) they saw the flag as indicative of political zionism which offended them because they see that as laying claim to the grief of Aushwitz, something they themselves may feel connected to. Many people in Europe are very angry with the Israeli state machine and the way political zionism is being painted as the only way to be truly Jewish. Many people are also angry at the actions of the Israeli army in Gaza and percieve those actions to be tantamount to a new form of fascism in which case the overt presence of the Israeli flag which exists currently as a symbol of that abuse, may have seemed highly offensive. Having said that it was clearly an innappropriate response and led those people to do a fair impression of the kind of ugliness seen in racists and anti semites Last edited by DanaC; 08-10-2004 at 03:42 AM.

08-10-2004, 09:55 AM	#5
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Sorry Dana but 99.999% of Jews are Zionists which means if you say you hate Zionists, you're just trying to mask the fact that you hate Jews; even if you are one.. I'm not Jewish. I'm an atheist and a proud Zionist. I support the right of Israel to exist. To claim they don't have such a right is to claim that nobody has a right to exist. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

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08-09-2004, 07:55 PM	#2
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Sometimes I think people have difficulty differentiating between their feelings towards the Israeli state or political zionism in individuals and their attitude to the Jewish diaspora as a whole. The comments the three made sounded to me more like they were angry with Israel than with the people themselves as Jews. Unfortunately they chose to express their anger towards people who were paying their respects to the long dead victims of genocide and as such their vitriol was at best misplaced and at worst revoltingly insensitive. The fact that they were at Aushwitz at all makes me wonder if they are less anti semitic and more anti Israel...Their anger at the wearing of the Israeli flag may have been someone feling offended at the political entity of Israel laying claim to all grief for the holocaust. We do not even know the ethnic or religious identity of the three Frenchmen. For all we know they could be politically left wing anti right -wing -zionist french Jews.

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