personhood

henry quirk · 10-09-2019, 01:48 PM

Okay.

You'll pardon others who don't share that conclusion, yeah?

Flint · 10-09-2019, 01:56 PM

Of course, since the world can't function if this is what we believed.

I misspoke by using the word "necessity" --I meant to say it isn't necessitated by following a trail of evidence.

It is necessitated by necessity.

henry quirk · 10-09-2019, 02:29 PM

You're a determinist, yeah?

Flint · 10-09-2019, 02:45 PM

I suppose so. In the sense that we're skating on the surface of a layer of abstraction which we aren't designed to, and therefore it isn't possible for us to understand the web of interconnected causal relationships that underlie it. The part of life we experience and ascribe meaning to exists within an emergent state that arises from a network of infinitely complex mechanical operations. We can't understand it or see it--just as it is said of God. It works "in mysterious ways." And within that layer, where we live, there are properties that are disconnected in any meaningful sense from their deterministic foundation. Ultimately, though I find it inconceivable that the universe isn't an orderly hierarchy of causes and effects that operate by a set of rules.

ESPECIALLY that there are "special" rules and exceptions for a "special" group of bipedal apes that are hallucinating a version of reality based on a thin slice of the electromagnetic spectrum, and ascribing "special" meaning to it based on how their big brain chemicals makes them feel.

henry quirk · 10-09-2019, 02:54 PM

Well then, I guess I'll put you in the 'bestowed' category (cuz, obviously, you don't think personhood is intrinsic [or, as a category, special]).

Flint · 10-09-2019, 04:02 PM

You could say that a deterministic universe makes everything intrinsic, but something as ephemeral as the "true nature of person-hood" is so many layers abstracted from the deterministic substrate, it's difficult even to suggest that we're bestowing something we're intrinsically determined to bestow.

I do think that's possible, but it would mean the main category of "un-person" is neuro-atypical individuals.

henry quirk · 10-09-2019, 06:18 PM

There are definitions of 'person' that would definitely put certain folks into the category of 'un-' or 'non-' person.

Seems to me, however, these definitions fall under 'bestowed' (the recognition of qualities or characteristics in one by another) rather than 'intrinsic' (sumthin' inherent in one that exists independent of another's recognition).

View Poll Results: A human being is...
...bio-automation, organic machinery.	1	14.29%
...sumthin’ more than bio-automation, not only organic machinery.	6	85.71%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

10-09-2019, 01:48 PM	#1
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	"It's not convenient, but I can't avoid the conclusion." Okay. You'll pardon others who don't share that conclusion, yeah? __________________ like the other guy sez: 'not really back, blah-blah-blah...'

10-09-2019, 01:56 PM	#2
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Of course, since the world can't function if this is what we believed. I misspoke by using the word "necessity" --I meant to say it isn't necessitated by following a trail of evidence. It is necessitated by necessity. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

10-09-2019, 02:29 PM	#3
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	Flint You're a determinist, yeah? __________________ like the other guy sez: 'not really back, blah-blah-blah...'

10-09-2019, 02:45 PM	#4
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	I suppose so. In the sense that we're skating on the surface of a layer of abstraction which we aren't designed to, and therefore it isn't possible for us to understand the web of interconnected causal relationships that underlie it. The part of life we experience and ascribe meaning to exists within an emergent state that arises from a network of infinitely complex mechanical operations. We can't understand it or see it--just as it is said of God. It works "in mysterious ways." And within that layer, where we live, there are properties that are disconnected in any meaningful sense from their deterministic foundation. Ultimately, though I find it inconceivable that the universe isn't an orderly hierarchy of causes and effects that operate by a set of rules. ESPECIALLY that there are "special" rules and exceptions for a "special" group of bipedal apes that are hallucinating a version of reality based on a thin slice of the electromagnetic spectrum, and ascribing "special" meaning to it based on how their big brain chemicals makes them feel. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

10-09-2019, 02:54 PM	#5
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	Well then, I guess I'll put you in the 'bestowed' category. Well then, I guess I'll put you in the 'bestowed' category (cuz, obviously, you don't think personhood is intrinsic [or, as a category, special]). __________________ like the other guy sez: 'not really back, blah-blah-blah...'

10-09-2019, 04:02 PM	#6
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	You could say that a deterministic universe makes everything intrinsic, but something as ephemeral as the "true nature of person-hood" is so many layers abstracted from the deterministic substrate, it's difficult even to suggest that we're bestowing something we're intrinsically determined to bestow. I do think that's possible, but it would mean the main category of "un-person" is neuro-atypical individuals. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

10-09-2019, 06:18 PM	#7
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	"it would mean the main category of "un-person" is neuro-atypical individuals." There are definitions of 'person' that would definitely put certain folks into the category of 'un-' or 'non-' person. Seems to me, however, these definitions fall under 'bestowed' (the recognition of qualities or characteristics in one by another) rather than 'intrinsic' (sumthin' inherent in one that exists independent of another's recognition). __________________ like the other guy sez: 'not really back, blah-blah-blah...'

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