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[DanaC]

Richlevy that's an excellent point.

It's too easy I think to simply point at the soldiers/reservists who engaged in such activities and say they are the problem. The way I understand it, it's not an easy thing to cross that line the first time. Our militaries spend fortunes training people to be able to cross a line which most humans simply cant cross.

In studies ranging from the Prussian wars to the modern era we see that the vast majority of soldiers on the front line ( without the particular training which has been developed to combat this in recent years) didnt aim to kill when confronted with his enemy's face. In the down and dirty type of fighting which allows you to see the eyes of the man you are about to kill most people find it nearly impossible to strike the killing blow. People who would have sworn blind they would have no difficulty found instead that they simply couldnt do it. One of the most common forms this inability would take ...was that their hand would not respond. A temporary paralysis or freezing of their trigger finger.

An American military chap ( cant recall his name now) who lectures at Westpoint and is recognised as the world's leading expert in the phsycology of killing suggested on a programme I saw, that 98 per cent of the population find killing difficult often to the point of impossibilty which means that even if they are able to overcome their difficulty and take the life of another they are then left with enormous phsycological trauma....Two per cent have little or no difficulty in killing . Of those half are what we generally think of as "heros" they are able to empathise and understand the seriousnes of what they do but are able to kill without difficulty and without the crippling psychological aftereffects. The other half of this 2 per cent...are sociopaths. They are able to kill without difficulty , without psychological after effects and are unable to empathise.

The US military has perfected training methods which specifically counter this difficulty. Theirs is the best training available to modern man if what you wish to train people to do is to step over the line which stops most animals (it apparently holds true across many species) actually killing another of its own species.
They apparently can now train an ordinary soldier in such a fashion that they are able to overcome this whilst in combat. (they do it with very very sophisticated wargames and pattern behaviours to the point of near automation when in the zone)
They are still working on the crippling psychological after effects

They claim 60 % of their soldiers now are able to fire the killing shot at rather than 2 or 3 % .....If thats the case then there must be a lot of trauma being inflicted on these people which they are going to have to live with...Not just the ones who have committed "crimes" against the Iraqis but the also ones who are following orders to the letter and doing their job well.

It also means....that amongst the well trained and organised soldiers there is a small but heavily armed bunch of sociopaths running around iraq right now.

Needless to say I think this extends to the British army also....Seems our boys and girls have been up to some highly dubious shenanigans as well.

Iraqi familys' High Court Battle for Compensation

[glatt]

What's your point? The purpose of a soldier is to kill people. That's their job. I want them to have that training. I want them to be good at killing.

[DanaC]

My point ( or points) is that it isnt really much of a surprise to find some of our soldiers are overstepping the mark and that both the ones who are guilty of crimes and the ones who are merely guilty of doing their job will have a lot of psychological trauma to deal with when they return to civilian life.

[Undertoad]

(they do it with very very sophisticated wargames and pattern behaviours to the point of near automation when in the zone)

And thus, are possibly almost as good as those 13-year-olds who have logged over 1000 hours in Counter-Strike.

USMil: 0WnZZ0Rs!!!!

And me with Ghost Recon - where practically every other kill is that close, and it's as sophisticated a wargame as is possible to design with current technology. Am I 31337 enuf for teh MARINEZ?

[glatt]

Originally posted by DanaC
My point ( or points) is that it isnt really much of a surprise to find some of our soldiers are overstepping the mark and that both the ones who are guilty of crimes and the ones who are merely guilty of doing their job will have a lot of psychological trauma to deal with when they return to civilian life.

OK. Fair enough.

I know it's a bit trite, but: "war is hell."

I'm no fan of this war in Iraq. I don't think we have a good reason to be there. The decision to go to war was made too casually. But now that we are at war, I'm not surprised in the least by any of the crap that's going on.

It's only going to get worse.

[jaguar]

USMil: 0WnZZ0Rs!!!!

I can see hordes of dead iraqis floating over falluja bitching about the way UsMil has godmode and keeps getting BS headshots.

[Undertoad]

Heh, that's the thing - they believe they have Godmode. Can't remember where I read it, but apparently one reason Arabs are terrible shots as a whole is because they tend to not aim at all - just point in the general direction of the target, and Allah is supposed to take care of the rest.

To combine this thread with the philosophy thread, a solid belief in predestination is a really, really bad trait for a soldier.

[wolf]

Originally posted by DanaC
My point ( or points) is that it isnt really much of a surprise to find some of our soldiers are overstepping the mark and that both the ones who are guilty of crimes and the ones who are merely guilty of doing their job will have a lot of psychological trauma to deal with when they return to civilian life.

Actually, this is something that the US Military is quite aware of, and has plans in place to deal with the reentry into civilian life. Some of this involves Critical Incident Stress Management, as well as counselling.

[xoxoxoBruce]

.

[Happy Monkey]

As our good friend, Rush Limbaugh, says:

RUSH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the skull and bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off?

[richlevy]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey

As our good friend, Rush Limbaugh, says:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RUSH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the skull and bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please tell me this is a joke.

[BrianR]

Chosen carefully and taken out of context.

I heard that segment and he was NOT excusing the soldiers who mistreated Iraqis. He's not even an apologist for them, he was simply making the point that a few rotten apples should not be used to judge ALL Americans any more than a few misguided Arabs who hijacked and subsequently crashed civilian jets into buildings, killing thousands, should not be used to judge all Arabs.

I can find the transcript on his website if I really want to.

Brian

[elSicomoro]

I was thinking about this tonight...Rush is a dumbfuck, IMO...but not that dumb. Besides, had he really said it as presented above, it would have been all over the news.

[tw]

Originally posted by richlevy
I'm not quite ready to build a conspiracy theory around this. Basically we under-supported the prison in order to supply manpower to a badly overstretched occupation force. Conspiracy theories imply competence. This was just another cluster fuck caused by bad planning and lack of support, not to mention politicizing the war in not allowing the generals fighting it to ask for the forces they really need and getting rid of the ones who actually do give reasonable estimates.

I don't understand where insufficient staffing has anything to do with the abuse. Do people who are overworked then physically and sexually abuse others? Where is the justification? Understaffing and insufficient training do not justify this kind and widespread abuse.

When a large organization enters a project with a clear objective, then the rules work. We entered the Kuwait liberation with clear and specific objectives. In fact Powell had to fight tooth and nail to get those objectives defined. He fought so hard for those specific objectives that many (ie Cheney) openly wondered if they had the right General for the job. But as a result, the liberation occurred according to principles that America deems essential. The rules actually meant something because top management was responsible enough to even make specific objectives.

This war is clearly had no strategic objectives, no exit strategy, no political solutions to take over when the military job was done, top management that even takes troops off of planes to go home and says, "you are staying another three months". When management is that corrupt (and yes that kind of incompetance by management is called corruption), then the little people make on their own rules (ie Catch 22).

Where is a conspiracy to be assumed? There is no conspiracy. These things will happen when top mangement does as this administration has done. These are lessons from Vietnam - another war lead by corrupt top management.

Is it not obvious that the rules don't matter. Guantanamo Bay (Camp Delta) said torture and abuse of 'infidel' muslims is acceptable and preferred. That attitude - that message from highest levels - the White House - said the written rules will not be enforced. No conspiracy. Just exactly what happens when troops never even trust the date given for going home.

No specific agenda. Lies even about reasons for war from the highest levels. Lies about sufficient numbers of troops. Lies about the people wanting to be liberated. Lies - for some units multiple times - about when the troops would be going home. Even a top general who outrightly disparages Muslims in public - and is not even reprimanded (investigation is said to still be ongoing). Torture and abuse are therefore acceptable behavoir. That is the message. Just as in VietNam, when top management lies, does not even provide honest objectives. Lies and deciet within the ranks are then common; should be expected. The concept is even taught in a 500 BC book called "Art of War". Principles are that well understood - except apparently by this administration.

In VietNam, we were liberating yellow skined, slant eyed boys. It turns out they did not want to be liberated. And so we ended up with My Lai massacre and "we had to burn the village to save it" mentality. Exact same thing in Iraq. Directly traceable to the attitude and knowledge provided by this George Jr administration.

A soldier marries an Iraqi against orders. He is simply reprimanded. Soldiers sexually and physically absue prisoners. They too are only reprimanded. Investigation still ongoing for how long and nobody - not even Congress - is informed? What does that say? Minor infractions include outright torture and sexual abuse. How much clearer could top management be?

Then it gets even worse. The president cannot even apologize for this abuse. Abuse was ongoing and known for most of the last six months in that one prison alone. It is still ongoing in Guantanamo Bay. It may have been routine in many other locations (only during the tenure of George Jr). People are picked up and held for 3 months. No outside contact. Relatives are not even told where they are. The Red Cross is not even permitted to visit! After three months, if they are not guilty of anything, they are kicked out with $10. This is justice? This says to Iraqis that Americans are better than Saddam? This is how America will win the hearts and minds of people? Teach them the values of democracy?

We did not even do that to prisoners in WWII. Red Cross informed the families of where the man was being held. Why is it justified now to not even tell his family where he is? Because they are only muslims? That was the message even from Guantanamo Bay.

If the prisons were so understaffed, then why was the Red Cross not even permitted to help?

Tell the truth? Even the murder, in 15 minutes, of an Iraq Major General was covered up. They even faked the attempt to rescue him from a heart attack long after he was murdered. Why do we only find out about this now, almost 1 year later? Why does 60 Minutes II report to the president what even his top cabinent officers knew and could not report? Or is George Jr only lying again? Hoping just like Nixon that the truth will remain buried? Blame the misguided assistants.

Tell the truth? A new sign is now posted in Abu Ghraib that says no pictures? Why? Torture would still be ongoing if not for those photos. Reminds me of when the press would demonstrate repeatedly how airports had no real security. What was the solution? Congress passes a law making it a crime to test airport security. That mentality also saved the WTC. The sign should read, "all who enter are required to take pictures." Why do we fear more truths coming out?

Again, top management is so much the problem that George Jr will not even apologize for the abuse. His arrogence is only dipping toxins all over the middle east.

But some have noted something good. America - or more specific, the name George Bush - is so toxic in the Arab world that this only and again confirms the hate. It does not increase the hate. However it has caused a light to be turned on. Suddenly, Arabs are now seeing how dirty the entire room is. Discussions in free press organizations (ie Al Jazzera) are also expanding the anger to how prisons are also run in Syria and Saudia Arabia. So maybe some good will come.

Still that and a shortage of troops does not justify any of the abuse. There is no conspiracy. That abuse occurred because it was condoned and encouraged at the highest levels of government. They defined the objectives. They demonstrated that the wrong actions will not result in anything more than a reprimand. This Abu Ghraib prison abuse is exactly the attitude encouraged from the White House. No conspiracy. They simple defined an attitude and objective. The abuse was an inevitable consequence - for the same reasons even massacres were inevitable in Vietnam. This is what happens when top management does not do its job - does not even define a valid strategic objective - lies about the war's purpose - and all but condones the resulting abuse. Hell. The president is so arrogent that he cannot even apologize for something that America should be apologizing for.... big time.

[DanaC]

The picture Bruce posted is of alleged abuses at the hands of British troops. Needless to say this does not make me all too proud of our lads. .....What does make me proud though is that the pictures and the details of abuse were passed to the Mirror by squaddies serving alongside the abusers. Some of the soldiers felt strongly enough abou this to blow the whistle. Go lads.

Talking of the My Lai massacre.....Just as an aside, my ex's dad wrotea play about that called "Bodycount" which has been translated into serveral languages and performed in several countries ( including somewhere in the East but damned if I can recall where!)....was a wonderful play. He can write can Les.....Goes for the gritty little details that make it all come home and spins off into something beautiful and lyrical ....I wish I could finda copy of it but I believe its out of print now. Last time it was performed was over a decade ago at least. Its all told to the audience by the character of a woman who survived the massacre ( she was a child at the time).