Capital Punishment

[Lady Sidhe]

This is a subject dear to my heart...I wholeheartedly believe in capital punishment, and I'm offended when murderers, or multiple murderers, get life in prison (which, unless specifically stating "without the possibility of parole" does not actually MEAN life in prison), and we have to take care of them for as long as they're incarcerated. I don't know about every other prison, but here in Louisiana, Angola prisoners have cable tv, weight rooms, law libraries, medical, dental, visual, etc. and similar luxuries. I work my ass off and I don't have any of these things. A lot of people work their asses off and don't have any of these things, yet their taxes go to give them to predators. I resent the fact that these people, who prey on society, are being taken care of with MY money. Angola used to be self-sufficient, but it isn't anymore. Hunt Correctional center IS, though. They grow their own food there. The word "Penitentiary" once meant a place criminals went to become penitent of their crimes....

ANYWAY, not to get off the subject...opponents of capital punishment use the arguments that:

1. It's not a deterrent
2. It costs more to execute a prisoner than it does to support him

3. Innocent people are executed
4. Execution is revenge taken by the state, not necessarily justice
5. It's "cruel and unusual" punishment


If I may be allowed to retort:

1. Not one single executed criminal will ever commit another crime again

2. Only because they get a bazillion appeals. A rope is reusable. A powerful enough bullet can go through two or three people at a time.

3. DNA testing should be mandatory for all cases that carry the death penalty. It shouldn't be optional, and it shouldn't be only if whomever wants the test can afford it.

4. To quote a judge (can't remember his name offhand, but if you really need it, I'll find it) "Lawful execution is no more murder than lawful confiscation is stealing." I agree. Everyone knows that murder carries the death penalty. If you decide to take the chance and get caught, it's your own damned fault. Society deserves to be protected from those who would prey on it. And it shouldn't have to pay to support them and their cable for the rest of their lives in order to do it.

5. "Cruel and unusual" is what the murderer did to the victim, their friends, and their families. I think we should bring back hanging and the guillotine. I'm all for cruel and unusual. I'll bet it would make someone else take pause, when they realize that they may be drawn and quartered...Why on earth should their method of death be any less "cruel and unusual" than the method by which they meted death out to their victims? Why shouldn't they have to suffer for the suffering they put the friends and families through? Screw "cruel and unusual." They should die the same way they caused their victim to die. THAT'S justice.


The reason the death penalty is supposedly not the deterrent it was hoped is that it isn't carried out as it should be. Stop commuting sentences. Stop pardoning people. Stop giving them five hundred hearings. Every time a prisoner files a writ, the sentence is stayed until the Supreme Court can review it. One murderer delayed his execution for 15 years with appeals...appeals that cost us a fortune.

And I also have a problem with the insanity plea. As I'm sure Wolf can vouch for, "insanity" under the law is not the same thing as "insanity" psychiatrically speaking. Besides, if you're so psychotic that you're murderously dangerous, that's only my problem insofar as you're walking the streets. You deserve to die just as much as the next murderer. Now, I don't know how Wolf will respond to my next statement, as I'm sure our experiences with the mentally ill are bound to have differences, but I've found that truly psychotic people aren't usually murderous. They may fight to protect themselves from perceived threats, but once they no longer feel threatened, they don't continue the violent behavior (yes, I know some schizophrenics have delusions that may cause them to feel that so-and-so is out to get them, and may commit premeditated defense, but I have seen very few of those). And I don't think that a personality disorder, which cannot be cured, or sexual deviation, which cannot be cured, should be counted as a defense. It's been shown that a personality disorder cannot be "cured" unless the individual wants to change the behavior. Since the behavior only causes problems for others, the person often does not have the motivation to change the behavior. And sexual criminals, such as pedophiles, have been shown to be extremely resistent to treatment (read, "incurable"). Therefore, why shouldn't they be treated as the dangers that they are and be removed from society?

Personally, I think that while a death-row inmate is awaiting execution, s/he should have to pay society back for the privileges s/he gets, by becoming a lab rat. It's already been established that animals don't always give results accurate insofar as human beings are concerned. And I also think that executions should be put on pay-per-view...that way, anyone who wants to watch it can, and the money generated could go to the upkeep of the prisons.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Anybody else got change?

Sidhe

[Happy Monkey]

As far as I'm concerned, you can't get past #3. There is no excuse for executing an innocent person, and DNA evidence is not always available. Many people who wouldn't trust a jury to award damages in a civil lawsuit, or who complain about "activist judges" thwarting the will of the people, are perfectly happy to accept a guilty verdict in a capital murder case.

There is far too much pressure, political and otherwise, to find someone - anyone - guilty of a heinous murder to assume that a verdict is perfectly reliable. In my opinion, it is better that 1000 murderers serve life in prison than for one innocent person to be executed.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Spending the rest of my life in prison for something I did would be vey unpleasant, possibly unbearable. For something I didn't do would certainly be unbearable. I think I'd rather die.

[Happy Monkey]

I think that decision is something best left to the person actually experiencing it. "Oh, your life is going to suck, so I figured you'd rather die. Aren't you going to thank me?"

There are people who spend 40 years in prison before they are exonerated.

[Lady Sidhe]

Well, if "life" MEANT "life," it would be different. However, that is rarely the case. And if WE didn't have to pay for incarceration, and prisons were self-sufficient, that would also be different. But we DO. We have to pay to keep these individuals from preying on us. I don't agree with that. We shouldn't have to take care of these predators for however long they're in there.

At the very least, we shouldn't have to pay for their various medical, their cable, etc. Why should they have such privileges? I don't kill, rob, rape, or assault people. I work my ass off to make my bills, take care of my family, and just survive. I don't have money for medical insurance or cable. I don't think I should have to pay to keep these people from kidnapping, raping, and killing my daughter or me, or assaulting, robbing, and killing my husband. It's almost like the mafia extorting money for "protection" from themselves.

Prisons should be self-sufficient. They should be places that people don't want to go for ANY length of time. No medical, no cable, no weight rooms. You're not there to enjoy yourself. You're there to be so miserable that you don't want to ever go there again.

However, I do also think that violent criminals should be seperated from non-violent criminals. They shouldn't be in the same prison. I also think that prisoners who are eligible to eventually get out should be required to get some kind of skill or degree as a condition of getting out. That way, people would HAVE some kind of skill that would help them when they get out. They won't feel they have to go back to doing what got them in prison. At the very least, it would offer them options. THAT would be money well-spent.

And I do believe that there are crimes that warrant the death penalty. The rape of a child. The murder of a child. Murder for any reason other than self-defense, and torture, for example. Some people need to be permanently removed from society, and warehousing them is a waste of money. Extreme crimes should warrant extreme penalties.

There are a few books that bring this idea home. One in particular is called "Death from Child Abuse... and No One Heard." about a little girl named Ursula "Sunshine" Assaid. She was five years old, and her mother's boyfriend had been torturing her for weeks. He made her eat soap; he beat her; he refused to let her go to the bathroom, and beat her when she used the bathroom on herself; denied her water, and a host of other things. When the abuse finally killed her, her mother and the boyfriend wrapped her body in a sheet, weighted it down, and threw it in a pond.

When they were caught, the boyfriend went to prison (he was killed there, which I think was too good for him. He should've had to go through the same torture that little girl experienced), and the mother went to prison also, but she's out now. She knew about the abuse and did nothing to stop it, and now she's out, able to have more kids and do the same to them. It makes me sick. Anyone who can torture and kill a child can do it to anyone, and they deserve to die.

Sidhe

[xoxoxoBruce]

There are a number of prisons that make money. They do mostly government contract work like weaving, sewing, assemby work.
With virtually no labor cost and preferable treatment status they bid against private businesses for contracts. They quite often take over the work even though the processes are proprietary to and in some cases patented by the businessses they replace.

[Happy Monkey]

The last thing we want is profitable prisons. The idea of lobbyists in DC trying to get more laborers is repugnant. That said, I'm on board with taking out weight rooms and cable TV.

But I don't care if they've got jacuzzis and martinis on call - there's no economic argument for executing an innocent person.

[Lady Sidhe]

Execution of innocent people...I agree that that's something that's hard to get by, which is why I think DNA ought to be MANDATORY in capital cases. You can mess up DNA to make it look like it ISN'T someone it is, but you can't make it look like it's someone it ISN'T.

And what about the ones we KNOW did it? There's no impediment to their executions except the liberals whining about "cruel and unusual."

Sidhe

[elSicomoro]

DNA is not always an issue.

Liberals whining...cute. Like liberals are the only ones against the death penalty on those grounds.

[Lady Sidhe]

I didn't mean to imply that liberals were the ONLY ones who opposed capital punishment, but from what I've seen, they're the most vocal and demonstrative...fighting tooth-and-nail for the rights of cold-blooded murderers, and staging candlelight vigils on the eve of executions, as if the victims meant nothing.

The fact that the victims are cast aside in their quest to secure even MORE rights for predators angers me. It appears to me that the accused is given more rights, or rather, respect of his rights, than the victim, when they're processed. God forbid anyone's civil rights are violated...except the victims, of course. THEY can't file a frivolous lawsuit....

We and our families deserve to be protected. Predators eat away at the fabric of society, and influence others to follow their example, in some cases (as in when children see their parents, family, or friends getting away with breaking the law in violent ways). More consideration is afforded the accused than the victim. Appeals are endless. Privileges are abundant. So what's really the deterrent?
Perhaps if we brought back public humiliation, like stocks and public caning, for first offenses, second offenses wouldn't occur. Peer pressure is a strong motivator. Then perhaps it wouldn't come to the death penalty. Who knows?

I just believe that the death penalty is appropriate for certain crimes, and that it should be carried out when it is proven that the individual is guilty. There shouldn't be ENDLESS appeals. Just because he confessed before he could be mirandized doesn't change the fact that he confessed. Just because the word "the" was in the wrong place on the search warrant doesn't invalidate the fact that the police found the murder weapon or bloody clothing in the individual's home. When people like that get off on technicalities, it's makes a farce of the justice system.

Sidhe

[Slartibartfast]

Another problem with the death penalty is that it unfairly targets the minorities and the poor. You hire a good enough lawyer, and you are sure to avoid death row.


And I really think that risking the death of one innocent person is just too great.

Give'em life and make it REALLY be life in prison, no parole. Make them work, make them suffer, make them feel remorse for years and years.

[Lady Sidhe]

And I'd like to make it clear that while I DO advocate the death penalty, that doesn't mean I advocate executing innocent people. Just as everyone who is in jail may not be guilty, not everyone who gets the death penalty is innocent.

I'll check on the stats, but it would seem that very few innocent people are executed. I say this because:

While individuals may favor the death penalty, juries are reluctant to impose it. They're ready to find reasonable doubt or mitigating circumstances if it means they can vote for life in prison. Few people like to think that they were responsible for ordering the death of someone else, even if they think that person deserves it. Opinion is one thing, action another.

Cases that warrant the death penalty are not common. The crimes have to be especially heinous for a prosecutor to go for capital punishment, and a prosecutor usually won't ask for the death penalty unless they're sure they have compelling evidence for both a conviction, and to convince a jury to vote for death.

Even in cases that, under the law, would warrant the death penalty, convicted people often instead receive life in prison (with possibility of parole, or without). Not to mention the fact that the endless appeals give ample time to uncover new or mitigating evidence.

Along with advances in DNA, I think that the liklihood of innocent people getting executed is lower than it ever has been. No system is perfect, but that doesn't mean that the baby should be thrown out with the bathwater. Find ways to lower the chances of innocent people being convicted even more. But when it comes down to it, society deserves to be protected, and some people should be removed permanently.

Lemme go check on those stats. I'm interested in finding out how many innocent people have been executed, myself.


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
Another problem with the death penalty is that it unfairly targets the minorities and the poor. You hire a good enough lawyer, and you are sure to avoid death row.


And I really think that risking the death of one innocent person is just too great.

Give'em life and make it REALLY be life in prison, no parole. Make them work, make them suffer, make them feel remorse for years and years.

Ok, as to targeting minorities and the poor, I both agree and disagree. What I mean by that is this: just because the poor and minorities are convicted of murder doesn't mean that they DIDN'T do it, or that they DON'T deserve to die for what they did.

AND yes, I think that the more money you have, the more likely you are to get off, because you can hire slicker lawyers who don't care if you're guilty or innocent as long as you can pay. PD's could give a shit less. They get paid the same whether they win or lose. That's unfair.

But I don't think that just because you're poor or a minority that you should be afforded special privileges. If you did something to warrant the death penalty, you should pay the price. Just because you're poor or a minority doesn't mean you aren't dangerous. I'm poor, AND I'm a minority (I'm a po' female native American). Just because so-and-so had a good lawyer who got him off doesn't change the fact that YOU'RE guilty. We shouldn't let one murderer go free just because we didn't get a conviction on another...

Sidhe

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
I didn't mean to imply that liberals were the ONLY ones who opposed capital punishment, but from what I've seen, they're the most vocal and demonstrative...fighting tooth-and-nail for the rights of cold-blooded murderers, and staging candlelight vigils on the eve of executions, as if the victims meant nothing.

Perhaps you should look at it from a different perspective.

If a person is murdered, they certainly deserve justice. But where is the line drawn? You can't bring the victim back. "Eye for an eye" smacks of an endorsement of religion. And for every inmate that kills and is put to death, there are plenty more to take their place.

I find the death penalty to be abhorrent...it is the tool of a less-than-civilized society.

The fact that the victims are cast aside in their quest to secure even MORE rights for predators angers me. It appears to me that the accused is given more rights, or rather, respect of his rights, than the victim, when they're processed. God forbid anyone's civil rights are violated...except the victims, of course. THEY can't file a frivolous lawsuit....

Are you referring to a trial in this situation?

We and our families deserve to be protected. Predators eat away at the fabric of society, and influence others to follow their example, in some cases (as in when children see their parents, family, or friends getting away with breaking the law in violent ways). More consideration is afforded the accused than the victim. Appeals are endless. Privileges are abundant. So what's really the deterrent?

A person fighting for his life should be able to exhaust all legal avenues...that's what the appeals courts are for. To take those options away would violate the 5th and 14th amendments (at least, from my viewpoint).

You seem hell bent on punishment...have you considered rehabilitation?

Perhaps if we brought back public humiliation, like stocks and public caning, for first offenses, second offenses wouldn't occur. Peer pressure is a strong motivator. Then perhaps it wouldn't come to the death penalty. Who knows?

Sounds to me like a violation of the 8th amendment.

Just because he confessed before he could be mirandized doesn't change the fact that he confessed. Just because the word "the" was in the wrong place on the search warrant doesn't invalidate the fact that the police found the murder weapon or bloody clothing in the individual's home. When people like that get off on technicalities, it's makes a farce of the justice system.

No, the little technicalities and what not are an important part of the justice system. There are rules within the justice system that must be followed. If those rules are broken, the rights of the accused could be jeopardized, and an unfair trial could occur. And after all...the accused are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, contrary to how it seems to operate today.

[Slartibartfast]

From Amnesty International:

Imposition of the death penalty is so riddled with class and race bias that it is used almost exclusively on the poor and people of color.

A recent study of death sentences in Philadelphia found that African-American defendants were almost four times more likely to receive the death penalty than were people of other ethnic origins who committed similar crimes.

Over 80% of people executed since 1976 were convicted of killing white victims, although people of color make up more than half of all homicide victims in the United States.

A defendant who can afford his or her own attorney is much less likely to be sentenced to die. Ninety-five percent of all people sentenced to death could not afford their own attorney.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/


While I agree in principal that there are people in this world that deserve to be shot like rabid dogs for their terrible crimes, I just don't trust the government system to be fair and just in the use of capital punishment.

edited for clarification