Jobs used as bargaining chip

[BigV]

I'm an Air Force brat, Dad was TSgt, USAF, Ret. Mom was in the Civil Service and worked at every Air Force base where we were stationed. Three brothers in the service, two Marine Corps, one Army. I have an uncle, very dear to me, USAF, CMSgt, Ret. His wife, my aunt, also Civil Service, same career arc. Ex FIL is USMC Ret. (also police precinct captain, so local civil service connections too, not just federal).

I do follow it. I am a big fan. I have made numerous posts clearly stating my respect and gratitude for the service given to me and my country by the men and women of our military. What I know about the military is based on my own personal experience *and* what I read and hear. What I know with absolute certainty is that our military (and all the other soldiers and sailors and airmen the world over) is comprised of people. Just people. They've made decisions about their lives, their service much like I might. They want a lot of the same stuff I want. Certainly there are areas that don't overlap, and the methods to achieve our goals, shared or not, may well differ dramatically.

But here in our country, at this time, our civilian led, all volunteer force is made up of people who *choose* this path. No one chooses (no sane person) without thinking about how this will affect their life, including the economic and social aspects of their life. Our military, especially individual service members, enjoys high status now, and that is a good thing, it is justified. But perhaps the unarticulated point we don't agree on is that the institution deserves respect as an institution, but the individual service members deserve respect on their own merits. Which might include their affiliation with the military, or not, as the news story above would indicate.

[Undertoad]

Well then I take it back.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by BigV

I'm an Air Force brat, Dad was TSgt, USAF, Ret. Mom was in the Civil Service and worked at every Air Force base where we were stationed. Three brothers in the service, two Marine Corps, one Army. I have an uncle, very dear to me, USAF, CMSgt, Ret. His wife, my aunt, also Civil Service, same career arc. Ex FIL is USMC Ret. (also police precinct captain, so local civil service connections too, not just federal).

I do follow it. I am a big fan. I have made numerous posts clearly stating my respect and gratitude for the service given to me and my country by the men and women of our military. What I know about the military is based on my own personal experience *and* what I read and hear. What I know with absolute certainty is that our military (and all the other soldiers and sailors and airmen the world over) is comprised of people. Just people. They've made decisions about their lives, their service much like I might. They want a lot of the same stuff I want. Certainly there are areas that don't overlap, and the methods to achieve our goals, shared or not, may well differ dramatically.

But here in our country, at this time, our civilian led, all volunteer force is made up of people who *choose* this path. No one chooses (no sane person) without thinking about how this will affect their life, including the economic and social aspects of their life. Our military, especially individual service members, enjoys high status now, and that is a good thing, it is justified. But perhaps the unarticulated point we don't agree on is that the institution deserves respect as an institution, but the individual service members deserve respect on their own merits. Which might include their affiliation with the military, or not, as the news story above would indicate.

Well put.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I was trying to figure out a pleasant way to say how his argument came from ignorance, other than just saying

It wasn't a sacrifice because they didn't do it for free? Really? You wanted them to do it for free? You don't value a standing military when the nation was attacked on its own soil only 10 years ago? This stems from either simple ignorance of the world, or a hatred of the nation that probably comes out of a bad relationship with a parent. In either case, the military person's sacrifice is only that much larger for having dickweeds like BigV going around spouting off that sort of shit. Do it for free, he said. What an asshole.

Good, thanks for going the extra mile in the interest of civil discourse.

As for your remarks that stayed on the cutting room floor, I would like to address them too.

I do believe that soldiers sacrifice a lot. I think they sacrifice more than school teachers and cops and librarians and politicians and mail carriers and many others. I also think that they make that sacrifice knowingly and voluntarily and are compensated for that sacrifice and service. I also believe that those other public servants also sacrifice, and do so voluntarily and are compensated. I did not and do not suggest that they serve for free. I do value a standing army, though I think our current military-industrial complex is vastly outsized compared to the main mission, and that surplus gets exercised in non-main missions like disaster relief and police work. I freely admit that I'm not a military expert or a political science master, you get my opinions informed by a life lived while paying attention.

I'm glad you didn't suggest that I'm ignorant of the world; I'm not. Or that I harbor a hatred of our nation; I don't. It is prudent of you to refrain from speculating on a non-existent bad relationship with my parents; that one would have definitely been covered in your own poo.

My gratitude or my disdain affects a soldier's sacrifice *not one iota*. If that were true, then the current attitude of adulation for our military would diminish the service of our military, and the service of, say, the veterans of Viet Nam would be elevated. There is no logic in such a statement.

I might be an asshole, but I didn't say do it for free.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Well then I take it back.

Fair enough.

UT, please let me be clear. I hold you in very high esteem. I bear zero ill will toward you. I value your input and look forward to reading your posts.

glatt said it very well, clarifying these gray areas might help clarify other areas. For me, that is a goal worth working toward.

[Pico and ME]

Big V - I stand in awe. Those were awesome posts.

[TheMercenary]

Obama is pushing the envelope.

[Aliantha]

I wonder what other returned or serving military members of this forum think of this thread.

eta: personally I think it's just lovely that everyone has a right to discuss whether or not they should be paid or not.

I'm pretty sure no one in the private sector would put up with that sort of shit.

[Pico and ME]

My husband was a marine (technically you can't say was, but he couldn't wait to get out, so he is definitely an 'ex') and he says you can never discount the sacrifice asked of our servicemen, but when it comes to death on the job, all life, when extinguished, is just as important as any others.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

My husband was a marine (technically you can't say was, but he couldn't wait to get out, so he is definitely an 'ex') and he says you can never discount the sacrifice asked of our servicemen, but when it comes to death on the job, all life, when extinguished, is just as important as any others.

Oh, I agree.

[classicman]

I don't think you'll find many who disagree with that.