societal advances smackdown (0-1750 AD vs 1751 AD- present) - Page 2

Trilby · 03-14-2009, 04:11 PM

the Hot Karl

sugarpop · 03-14-2009, 04:30 PM

ummm, I hate to burst your bubble UT but astonomy has been around since WAY before the 1700s. The Egyptians and the Mayans had knowledge of astronomy, as did many other ancient peoples. Also, democracy, medicine, chemistry, physics and even certain kinds of artillery, like catapults and trebuchets. That game isn't very precise.

Undertoad · 03-14-2009, 04:39 PM

The game doesn't place them in time, I did. I think it refers to modern medicine and modern democracy and modern artillery.

sugarpop · 03-14-2009, 04:50 PM

I'm just saying... :p

lumberjim · 03-14-2009, 05:02 PM

i was thinking that the leaps we've made in manufacturing, genetics, medicine, transportation, and especially the dissemination of information have been more than exponentially. Whereas given the amount of progress made in the 30,000 years prior to 1750, it seems almost stagnant.

Undertoad · 03-14-2009, 05:03 PM

Wikipedia puts chemistry at 1773 due to the "chemical revolution", a "reformulation of chemistry based on the Law of Conservation of Matter and the oxygen theory of combustion"

lumberjim · 03-14-2009, 05:41 PM

where in time do you place the fulcrum to balance the scale?

sugarpop · 03-14-2009, 05:42 PM

OK. But chemistry did exist before that. Ancient civilizations had some knowledge of chemistry, but Muslims made it into a science back around the 9th century.

sugarpop · 03-14-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

i was thinking that the leaps we've made in manufacturing, genetics, medicine, transportation, and especially the dissemination of information have been more than exponentially. Whereas given the amount of progress made in the 30,000 years prior to 1750, it seems almost stagnant.

I think, Jim, we've gone through stages of growth, and stages of ignorance. It's true that we've progressed more exponentially since the 1700s, but I'm not exactly sure all that progress has been positive. maybe, in some cases, we've progressed too fast for our own good.

Beestie · 03-14-2009, 05:51 PM

The discoveries of and in electricity, bacteria and subatomic physics pretty much blow everything before 1750 out of the water.

SteveDallas · 03-14-2009, 09:31 PM

I need to think about this one, but I'm not ready to hand it to the post-1750 period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

i was thinking that the leaps we've made in manufacturing, genetics, medicine, transportation, and especially the dissemination of information have been more than exponentially. Whereas given the amount of progress made in the 30,000 years prior to 1750, it seems almost stagnant.

I don't know about that... it's clear that we here typing on this board identify most heavily with post-industrial revolution developments for obvious reasons. That makes it hard for us to judge the accomplishments of past civilizations, to say nothing of European civilization pre-1750.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie

The discoveries of and in electricity, bacteria and subatomic physics pretty much blow everything before 1750 out of the water.

I a certain sense that's true. Would any of those discoveries have been made without Euclidean geometry? Trigonometry? Calculus? Again, it's hard for people who can whip out pocket calculators (or better yet phones with pocket calculators) to judge the historical impact of, say, logarithms.

I mean, let's look at Johannes Kepler (1571-1630). The man developed the first accurate descriptions of planetary orbits and their mathematical basis. He was basically working with data that involved holding up a ruler and measuring distances in the sky. But he was starting from practically nothing by comparison to today. Given that we now know Kepler's laws, and all the other stuff that's been discovered since, what would a corresponding leap forward in scientific knowledge be now? How many of our professional astronomers would do as well without the knowledge from their astronomy books and their computer-controlled space telescopes?

If I wanted to be a smartass (perish the thought) I would point out that the "dawn of time" would include the evolution of Homo sapiens . . . .

xoxoxoBruce · 03-15-2009, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveDallas

I a certain sense that's true. Would any of those discoveries have been made without Euclidean geometry? Trigonometry? Calculus? Again, it's hard for people who can whip out pocket calculators (or better yet phones with pocket calculators) to judge the historical impact of, say, logarithms.

What's more important, logarithms or what people have done with them?

SteveDallas · 03-15-2009, 08:25 AM

The answer isn't self-evident to me. If you asked me what was more important to me, a case of nails or my house, it'd be my house.

But the house couldn't have been built without nails.

On the other hand, would it be possible to build houses if nails had never been invented? Sure.

On the other hand, the question is "societal advances." We've been talking science and technology. I wouldn't want to exclude other issues (like in UT's list). So, you want to argue the Magna Carta vs. the United States Constitution? Bleah. No matter what example you pick, we got here by a specific route, in a specific sequence of developments. The oldest child will always feel ignored in favor of the youngest, and vice versa.

xoxoxoBruce · 03-15-2009, 11:38 AM

Maybe we could sum the good uses of logarithms, and then the bad uses of logarithms, to see if they were an asset or curse.

skysidhe · 03-15-2009, 11:44 AM

Post-1750

advances in medicine

I might have missed it on UT 's list.

03-14-2009, 04:11 PM	#16
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	the Hot Karl __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

03-14-2009, 05:02 PM	#20
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	i was thinking that the leaps we've made in manufacturing, genetics, medicine, transportation, and especially the dissemination of information have been more than exponentially. Whereas given the amount of progress made in the 30,000 years prior to 1750, it seems almost stagnant. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

03-14-2009, 05:41 PM	#22
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	where in time do you place the fulcrum to balance the scale? Attached Images __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

03-14-2009, 05:51 PM	#25
Beestie -◊\|≡·∙■·∙≡\|◊- Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Parts unknown. Posts: 4,081	The discoveries of and in electricity, bacteria and subatomic physics pretty much blow everything before 1750 out of the water. __________________ ♠ ♥ ♣ ♦

03-15-2009, 11:38 AM	#29
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Maybe we could sum the good uses of logarithms, and then the bad uses of logarithms, to see if they were an asset or curse. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

03-14-2009, 04:30 PM	#17
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	ummm, I hate to burst your bubble UT but astonomy has been around since WAY before the 1700s. The Egyptians and the Mayans had knowledge of astronomy, as did many other ancient peoples. Also, democracy, medicine, chemistry, physics and even certain kinds of artillery, like catapults and trebuchets. That game isn't very precise.

03-14-2009, 04:39 PM	#18
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	The game doesn't place them in time, I did. I think it refers to modern medicine and modern democracy and modern artillery.

03-14-2009, 04:50 PM	#19
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	I'm just saying... :p

03-14-2009, 05:03 PM	#21
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Wikipedia puts chemistry at 1773 due to the "chemical revolution", a "reformulation of chemistry based on the Law of Conservation of Matter and the oxygen theory of combustion"

03-14-2009, 05:42 PM	#23
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	OK. But chemistry did exist before that. Ancient civilizations had some knowledge of chemistry, but Muslims made it into a science back around the 9th century.

03-15-2009, 08:25 AM	#28
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	The answer isn't self-evident to me. If you asked me what was more important to me, a case of nails or my house, it'd be my house. But the house couldn't have been built without nails. On the other hand, would it be possible to build houses if nails had never been invented? Sure. On the other hand, the question is "societal advances." We've been talking science and technology. I wouldn't want to exclude other issues (like in UT's list). So, you want to argue the Magna Carta vs. the United States Constitution? Bleah. No matter what example you pick, we got here by a specific route, in a specific sequence of developments. The oldest child will always feel ignored in favor of the youngest, and vice versa.

03-15-2009, 11:44 AM	#30
skysidhe ~~Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.~~ Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 6,828	Post-1750 advances in medicine I might have missed it on UT 's list.

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