SCOTUS Grants Guantanamo Prisoners Habeas Corpus

[Aliantha]

They especially do not have the same rights as U.S. citizens.

I realize there's no context here in this quote, but I want to ask, do you mean they don't have the same 'inallienable' rights as US citizens, or do you mean the same 'legal' rights? The two are obviously very different and need some clarification.

My reason for suggesting this is that if it's inallienable rights you're talking about, then surely every human being has the same rights. It's just that some nations/religions/races don't acknowledge them.

[deadbeater]

Sigh. 'Unlawful combatant' status override diplomatic immunity. The way the Bush administration had it, once you are declared an unlawful combatant, no diplomatic immunity, no US citizenship, nor right to habeas corpus can save you. The SC at least granted a hearing regarding habeas corpus.

[flaja]

Originally Posted by smoothmoniker

Excellent point. All 1 billion or so followers of Islam are basically just terrorists-in-waiting. Let's switch to indiscriminately killing "moslems" until they all decide to love America.

I don't care one bit whether or not the Moslems love America as long they fear America to the point that they do not attack America or its allies.

BTW: Following the American Revolutionary War this country's first military encounter (apart from fighting Indians and a quasi-war with revolutionary France) was with the pirates of the Barbary Coast, i.e., Moslems.

[flaja]

Originally Posted by dar512

Placing the blame on all members of a particular religion didn't work out so well for the Nazis.

Yes. I know about Godwin. It's still a valid analogy.

The Nazis classified Jews according to their ethnicity, not their religion. If you had so much as a single grandparent that was Jewish you were considered to be Jewish under German law regardless of what religion you practiced.

The Arabs are the only people that could possibly have an ethnic beef against the Jews (and this is assuming that the Arabs are really descended from Abraham through Ishmael). Islam is not limited to Arabs, but Moslems in general the world over tend to hate the Jews (and by extension the U.S.). The Arabs, “Palestinians”, Syrians, Iranians etcetera are anti-Semitic and anti-American not because they are Arabic, “Palestinian”, Syrian or Iranian, but because they are Islamic.

[flaja]

Originally Posted by spudcon

Why does a group who purposely murder innocent women and children deserve the same rights as a soldier engaged in battle, defending his country, and following orders from his legitimate government?

Would you like to comment on the allied fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo? Women and children are often legitimate targets in a defensive war. The trouble with Islamic terrorists is that they believe they are fighting a defensive war.

They especially do not have the same rights as U.S. citizens. There were even wimps here in this country who didn't want us shipping them out to other Moslem countries, for fear their brethren would execute the poor dears.

U.S. Constitution
5th Amendment
“No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…”

The Constitution makes no distinction between a citizen of the United States and all other persons. If we are holding the people at Gitmo under a treaty that the U.S. has signed, then these people must be treated in accordance with the treaty. If we are holding these people under U.S. law, they are entitled to the same legal due process that our own citizens are entitled to.

[DanaC]

Islam is not limited to Arabs, but Moslems in general the world over tend to hate the Jews (and by extension the U.S.). The Arabs, “Palestinians”, Syrians, Iranians etcetera are anti-Semitic and anti-American not because they are Arabic, “Palestinian”, Syrian or Iranian, but because they are Islamic.

You do realise you have a sizable moslem community in the US right? Do you think they hate the US as well?

[flaja]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

I realize there's no context here in this quote, but I want to ask, do you mean they don't have the same 'inallienable' rights as US citizens, or do you mean the same 'legal' rights? The two are obviously very different and need some clarification.

My reason for suggesting this is that if it's inallienable rights you're talking about, then surely every human being has the same rights. It's just that some nations/religions/races don't acknowledge them.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

The Declaration of Independence makes no distinction between American citizens and everybody else. Americans cannot claim rights from God that we won’t allow others to have without being the biggest hypocrites on earth.

[flaja]

Originally Posted by DanaC

You do realise you have a sizable moslem community in the US right? Do you think they hate the US as well?

Back in the 1980s my neighborhood was becoming a majority black neighborhood and Moslems began infiltrating the black churches in the neighborhood with the full intent of preaching hatred for all things America in hopes that someday there would be a black/Muslim uprising in this country.

I’ve seen it claimed on the internet that Barak Obama’s former pastor, Jeremiah Wright, used to be a Muslim. And let’s not forget the Islamic Louis Farrakhan.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by flaja

The Nazis classified Jews according to their ethnicity, not their religion. If you had so much as a single grandparent that was Jewish you were considered to be Jewish under German law regardless of what religion you practiced.

The Arabs are the only people that could possibly have an ethnic beef against the Jews (and this is assuming that the Arabs are really descended from Abraham through Ishmael). Islam is not limited to Arabs, but Moslems in general the world over tend to hate the Jews (and by extension the U.S.). The Arabs, “Palestinians”, Syrians, Iranians etcetera are anti-Semitic and anti-American not because they are Arabic, “Palestinian”, Syrian or Iranian, but because they are Islamic.

Ok. Hmmm. I'm starting to think you are just flinging stuff on the wall to see what will stick.

All of the above has nothing to do with categorizing people strictly based on their religion -- which you did in your original post, nor with my analogy, which was mostly to say "it's bad to do that".

[deadbeater]

First of all, Arabs and Jews are ethnically the same. As Bobby Fischer said when asked if he was anti-Semite, 'I'm not anti-Arab.'

[deadbeater]

Originally Posted by flaja

I don't care one bit whether or not the Moslems love America as long they fear America to the point that they do not attack America or its allies.

BTW: Following the American Revolutionary War this country's first military encounter (apart from fighting Indians and a quasi-war with revolutionary France) was with the pirates of the Barbary Coast, i.e., Moslems.

The radical Muslims are beyond fearing anybody. They are in the 'I don't give a fuck' mode.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

You have no evidence of "routine" torture or "routine" extraordinary rendition. If you do post your original source documents.

Anyone with basic intelllgence has read the numerous facts that the United States government authorized torture. Today, another source states facts again and cites names - senior George Jr administration officials. From the Washington Post of 17 Jun 2008:

Report Questions Pentagon Accounts
Officials Looked Into Interrogation Methods Early On
A Senate investigation has concluded that top Pentagon officials began assembling lists of harsh interrogation techniques in the summer of 2002 for use on detainees at Guantanamo Bay and that those officials later cited memos from field commanders to suggest that the proposals originated far down the chain of command, according to congressional sources briefed on the findings.

The sources said that memos and other evidence obtained during the inquiry show that officials in the office of then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld started to research the use of waterboarding, stress positions, sensory deprivation and other practices in July 2002, months before memos from commanders at the detention facility in Cuba requested permission to use those measures on suspected terrorists.

... military lawyers raised strong concerns about the legality of the practices as early as November 2002, a month before Rumsfeld approved them. The findings contradict previous accounts by top Bush administration appointees, ...

"Some have suggested that detainee abuses committed by U.S. personnel at Abu Ghraib in Iraq and at Guantanamo were the result of a 'few bad apples' acting on their own. It would be a lot easier to accept if that were true," ... "Senior officials in the United States government sought out information on aggressive techniques, twisted the law to create the appearance of their legality, and authorized their use against detainees."

... memos and e-mails obtained by investigators reveal that in July 2002, Haynes and other Pentagon officials were soliciting ideas for harsh interrogations from military experts in survival training, according to two congressional officials familiar with the committee's investigation. By late July, a list was compiled that included many of the techniques that would later be formally approved for use at Guantanamo Bay, including stress positions, sleep deprivation and the hooding of detainees during questioning. The techniques were later used at the Abu Ghraib detention facility in Iraq.

Haynes was General Counsel for the Defense Department and Rumsfeld.

Haynes and other senior administration officials also visited Guantanamo Bay in September 2002 to "talk about techniques," said one congressional official. Also on the trip was David S. Addington, chief of staff to Vice President Cheney. ...

The Senate committee's findings echo earlier claims by many congressional Democrats, human rights groups and other administration critics who have maintained that responsibility for the controversial interrogation practices lies at the highest levels of the administration.

Wacko extremists approve of extraordinary rendition, torture, and even lie about it. TheMercenary, for the glory of his political agenda, again denies what was well known. Personal attacks on anyone who challenges their immorality is also expected since TheMercenary never has facts (that would also require an education).

Nobody decent doubts what the Senate investigation again confirms. Wacko extremists will deny it to defend a despicable George Jr. Since torture and other civil rights violations were authorized by the mental midget administration, wacko extremist must deny another report that says same. To dispute the Senate investigation, wacko extremists (ie TheMercenary) must again attack the messenger.

[flaja]

Originally Posted by dar512

Ok. Hmmm. I'm starting to think you are just flinging stuff on the wall to see what will stick.

All of the above has nothing to do with categorizing people strictly based on their religion -- which you did in your original post, nor with my analogy, which was mostly to say "it's bad to do that".

I know that I categorized Moslems according to their religion, and I meant to do so. But when you said that the Nazis categorized the Jews according to their religion, you are flat wrong.

[flaja]

Originally Posted by deadbeater

First of all, Arabs and Jews are ethnically the same. As Bobby Fischer said when asked if he was anti-Semite, 'I'm not anti-Arab.'

Other than historical tradition, your proof that Jews and Arabs are the same ethnicity is what?

[DanaC]

The Arabs are the only people that could possibly have an ethnic beef against the Jews (and this is assuming that the Arabs are really descended from Abraham through Ishmael). Islam is not limited to Arabs, but Moslems in general the world over tend to hate the Jews (and by extension the U.S.). The Arabs, “Palestinians”, Syrians, Iranians etcetera are anti-Semitic and anti-American not because they are Arabic, “Palestinian”, Syrian or Iranian, but because they are Islamic.

I disagree. Singapore is an Islamic country but they do not display a great deal of anti-American sentiment. The Middle-Eastern countries have a beef against Israel and this can often lead to a wider sense of anti-semitism. Their problem with Israel is based, however, on a territorial dispute.

I find it rather disturbing that you feel so confident in ascribing specific, racist views to a religion which is so widely followed in the world. There are many moslems who are anti-semitic. There are many Christians who are anti-semitic. There are also many of both who are not.

You accuse them of anti-semitism and in doing so display your own anti-islamic prejudice.