Immigrants "stealing our jobs"

[piercehawkeye45]

Ibram posted the picture I was thinking of. Maddox's stance makes a lot of sense too, force companies to pay every worker, illegal or not, minimum or above minimum wage and the incentive to higher illegals lessens. That is obviously idealistic though.

Immigrants are not taking American jobs, they are over-competing us for them. I really don't see this as anything more than a flaw or downside in the free market system. Foreign workers are willing to work for less pay than most regular Americans so companies and corporations, that make decisions based on profit, will obviously hire the immigrants, a lot of times illegal, over American workers.

In order to solve this problem, assuming that we want to legal American citizens to have jobs over illegals, Americans will either have to be willing to out compete the illegals, stop the illegals or immigrants from coming into our country, create more jobs, or allow state intervention.

Besides disagreeing with forcing Americans to out-competing the illegals on a socio-economic level, it will bring down the standard of living for the working and middle class and make the rich even richer, something that I cannot imagine being good for the economy or society in general.

I am very ignorant in this field but I'm pretty sure creating jobs is not easy and has some major drawbacks to it but not sure.

I am against creating a wall or blocking up the border because I see it as unrealistic. The cost of it is enormous, some estimates up to a million to ten million a mile [1] and will need constant upkeep. Besides that, the elite (the rich, CIA, etc) will not allow it.

That comes down to state intervention, which can be seen by either forcing equal pay to all workers, even illegals, or cracking down on companies that hire illegals. The first solution is good, but if you are going to do that you might as well do the second and we have seen that the second idea hasn't been working well because of reasons seen in the last paragraph.


The best idea I have is that we don't build the wall, open immigrant restrictions which will lower the amount of illegal immigrants because I am willing to bet most immigrants were breaking the law on a rational decision so if given the opportunity, they will come in legally. This obviously doesn't solve the problem but it at least will ease it. Besides that, trying to increase state intervention on companies or corporations or trying to stop illegal immigration at the source would help as well.



[1]http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/...720_page_3.htm

[monster]

I didn't see any differentiation between legal and illegal immigrants in the OP?

Merc and L123 introduced that concept.

seems to me Fresh's comments were perfectly valid. you're all so hung up on illegal immigration that you forget the legal type exists and then go on the attack to hide your embarrassment resulting from the faux pas, as far as I can tell.

So what are we talking about here? legal/illegal/are they all the same? (radar, your answer is taken as read) We came here to take a job that was offered to us. We stole nothing. But the only reason we could is because y'all don't train enough engineers with the right expertise. So to go back to the ant analogy, you get the cookies, put them on the counter, but then have no idea what to do with them until the ants arrive and show you what to do. Then you get mad at them. wtg!

And while you're ranting about immigration, remember that these days it goes both ways. You may not admit it, but you'd be fecking pissed off if you went to a country that needed your expertise and they refused to let you work -even for a pittance- because you were American. You stop legal immigration, you're going to lose the ability to emmigrate too. You can't be a world superpower if your citizens can't work in other countries.

[lookout123]

Fair enough. Flint didn't explicitly say "illegal" immigrants in his initial post. His original post was about the people complaining about immigrants. Who hears complaints about legal immigrants? The only complaint I hear about legal immigration is that it is too hard because of all the hoops people have to jump through. So, from my point of view the discussion was intended to discuss illegal immigrants who come in and take jobs that they have no right to have for the very simple fact that they are here illegally. I think that if that wasn't the subject that Flint was bringing up he might have corrected the misconception somewhere around the 2nd or 3rd post rather than waiting for you to do it several pages later.

I made no faux pas, so from that point I have no embarrassment about what was a very measured calm discussion until Fresh showed up with his insightful analysis, er excuse me - his tired old "you're an immigrant too" smartass snipe. I didn't lay into him because he doesn't have a right to his opinion but because he trotted out the same old BS that people throw on the table to cast the anti-illegal immigration argument as a racist's folly. A point that I addressed at length in my response to a PM he sent me.

So if you can drop the indignant act for long enough to reread the thread you'll realize that at no point were legal immigrants chastised, ridiculed, or even addressed as anything other than a welcome part of our society. In fact if I recall correctly I think my post stated that a crucial part of any solution to the illegal immigration problem is a complete overhaul of the legal immigration system; an overhaul to remove the hoops and obstacles for those seeking to legally enter this country. That is my opinion on the issue and I've had very little change in that view for years. But thanks for selectively reading and interpreting the early posts in this thread and getting your panties in a twist. When you get them untwisted take my following comments with the heartfelt sincerety that I write them with:

Welcome. Glad you're here. Thanks for being a contributing member of the US.

[classicman]

I believe that we need some measure of control over who comes into this country. Doesn't virtually EVERY country do that? I mean once that measure is taken and we control our own borders... who comes in, for how long, why.... this all becomes a different issue. Doesn't it?
From what I've read some favor no change at all - leave things as they are. Others want to build/fashion a wall so that we can CONTROL OUR BORDERS. Whats the big issue with that? They are our borders - right?
Some people seem to equate controlling the borders with preventing another 911 - thats just political rhetoric & is not gonna work.

[monster]

nothing selective about it, mate, that's you that is. You (general not specific use of the word) may not mean to include legals in your rants, but you do. Almost all legislation that comes in to prevent/deal with illegal immigration only hurts the legals. A bit like the frequent gun rant on here that tougher legislation serves no purpose because the criminals are already using illegal weapons and don't care......

People say immigrants when they mean illegals only. The problem is they legislate that way too. And it's the legals who get hurt. Again and again. Yes, I jumped through all the hoops to be here. I pay my taxes. But the US still wants the monkey to dance some more. New legal immigrants now can't get driver's licenses. No driver's license = no life. Why is this? Oh, yes, the paranoia that the illegals (who have never been entitled to get licences) will use this as a way to make their existance legal. or get a pilot's license for taking off purposes only....... yep, I'm ranting, I'm entitled. (But stop salivating over the thought of my panties in a twist -I only ever rant nekkid ).

...Just minutes ago -the last thing I was doing before I opened this thread- I came across an essay competition about global warming that my daughter would have enjoyed entering. But she can't because she's not a US citizen and the prize is a US savings bond. What harm would it do for a non-citizen permanent resident to own a savings bond? She can't even enter and forego the prize, apparently.

[TheMercenary]

I have no problem with legal immigration. Illegal immigrants are the problem.

[Undertoad]

Exactly. Come on in! In numbers! Just sign the guest book when you arrive.

This software engineer has been underemployed while H1B visas were all the rage. I don't care. If there was a good job doing Linux work in Britain I would certainly go there.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Immigrants are not taking American jobs, they are over-competing us for them. I really don't see this as anything more than a flaw or downside in the free market system. Foreign workers are willing to work for less pay than most regular Americans so companies and corporations, that make decisions based on profit, will obviously hire the immigrants, a lot of times illegal, over American workers.

and the people that hire them are breaking the law. They should be held accountable.

In order to solve this problem, assuming that we want to legal American citizens to have jobs over illegals, Americans will either have to be willing to out compete the illegals, stop the illegals or immigrants from coming into our country, create more jobs, or allow state intervention.

Or selectively toss them out and make them come back through legal means.

Besides disagreeing with forcing Americans to out-competing the illegals on a socio-economic level, it will bring down the standard of living for the working and middle class and make the rich even richer, something that I cannot imagine being good for the economy or society in general.

Besides the fact that Americans are not going to work for less, esp as the economy tanks and the dollar falls as inflation rises.

I am against creating a wall or blocking up the border because I see it as unrealistic. The cost of it is enormous, some estimates up to a million to ten million a mile [1] and will need constant upkeep. Besides that, the elite (the rich, CIA, etc) will not allow it.

We don't need a real wall, just a virtual wall and the forces authorized to interdict and detain intruders. Where do you get off saying that the elite and CIA will not allow it? What are you talking about here?

That comes down to state intervention, which can be seen by either forcing equal pay to all workers, even illegals, or cracking down on companies that hire illegals. The first solution is good, but if you are going to do that you might as well do the second and we have seen that the second idea hasn't been working well because of reasons seen in the last paragraph.

Actually it works very well but the differences vary by state and local political pressure. Some states are willing to step up to the plate, some are not. Everyone needs to be on board with the same plan and level of enforcement.

The best idea I have is that we don't build the wall, open immigrant restrictions which will lower the amount of illegal immigrants because I am willing to bet most immigrants were breaking the law on a rational decision so if given the opportunity, they will come in legally.

Can you justify this thought are you just guessing. The rational decision to come here is purely economic. 1) it is easy to get in, and 2) they can make much more money here and send it back home.

This obviously doesn't solve the problem but it at least will ease it. Besides that, trying to increase state intervention on companies or corporations or trying to stop illegal immigration at the source would help as well.

I don't agree that it would ease it. There would be a flood. And the excuse that because the grass is greener on our side and my life would be better does not wash as a reason to enter illegally.

[TheMercenary]

As for the fence, I guess I was wrong. Not wrong that it is not achievable, but wrong because the government bureaucracy is doing things the regular old way and allowing the contractors to screw it up and over charge without the appropriate oversight. The Brits had a great fence in HK and people still got through, but not many.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...703747_pf.html

[lookout123]

You don't need a physical fence across the whole southern border if you make the prospect of illegally crossing unattractive.

1) Penalize all employers who knowingly employ illegals by revoking their business licenses. That will cause the jobs to dry up for illegals.

2) Overhaul the legal immigration system making it easier to gain entrance for more people. This will prevent the collapse of industry that so many people cry about and will give potential employees a reason to follow the legal route.

3) Continue beef up the border patrol and drop all the BS about giving them paintball guns and radios. Arrest anyone caught coming across at unauthorized checkpoints. If they run, use whatever force is necessary to stop them. Down here most of the runners are carrying drugs and I'm sure it's the same elsewhere.

4) Take the handcuffs off LE agencies who currently do not turn over illegals to ICE.

5) Make the penalties for being caught here illegally really costly. Giving them a ride back to the other side of the border just doesn't cut it.

If our legal immigration system is changed so that most anyone with a clean history and an offer of employment can enter the country the benefits will be that we'll know who is here, where they are, and how long they are able to stay. With the knowledge that deportation is the result of breaking our laws or not having gainful employment, these fine folks will have every incentive to be fantastically positive members of our society. They will no longer live in fear of losing their jobs. They will no longer be limited to manual labor jobs where no records checks are done.

[Perry Winkle]

Illegal and legal immigration into the USA creates jobs. Go to SSRN or ScienceDirect and grab an article or two analyzing the effect of immigration on the job market.

[lookout123]

or i could choose to actually look around me and see the effects in day to day life.

a legal and an illegal immigrant may each be able to do a job. the illegal may even be cheaper to pay. but that isn't the whole of the equation. the legal immigrant will pay taxes, drive with a license which will require them to have insurance, have a verifiable job and means of paying for any medical care they receive, the ability to actually come and go as they please thus eliminating the need for the coyotes who have gun battles and kidnapping wars in our cities, i'm sure there are one or two more benefits that a legal immigrant has over an illegal but I think you get the point.

Only two groups benefit from illegal immigration, 1) employers who want to exploit them, and 2) politicians who want to exploit you.

[lookout123]

Illegal and legal immigration into the USA creates jobs.

as a separate point - what does this mean anyway? companies create jobs. immigrants regardless of status are just people to fill a possible job.

[HungLikeJesus]

There is a lawyer in the office next to mine and her practice is mostly devoted to helping immigrants, so immigrants don't just fill jobs - they also create them.

[lookout123]

fair enough. I see that as an attorney who created a job for herself simply by recognizing a niche market. she would still be an attorney if the immigrants weren't there. yeah, i know - semantics.