Dutch Ban Burkas

[Aliantha]

Some of the muslim women wear those here too, but mostly only in winter. lol it's a bit hot and humid here in the summer I would suspect.

UT...I agree and that's a large part of why I think it's important to be tolerant and try to understand the culture more because if understanding is working one way, often it will lead to better communication the other way as well.

[Aliantha]

Although I'd be a bit hesitant in agreeing that education solves all problems.

[JayMcGee]

Please, I'm trying very hard not to be intolerant.

But, at one level, I cannot understand the attitude that allows the wearing of burkha's in such a sensitive environment as a Church of England Primary school, yet bans 'hoodies' from shopping malls and crucifixes from BA check-in desks.

[DanaC]

Please, I'm trying very hard not to be intolerant.

Try harder? She wasn't allowed to wear a burkha in a C of E school. The ban on hoodies was patently ridiculous...a knee jerk reaction by the Blue water shopping centres, there is no ban on wearing a crucifix on BA check-in desks merely an employment regulation that such crucifixes be worn under the shirt not in view.

[Aliantha]

Well, I'd probably wonder why a Muslim woman would want a job in a Christian school to start with, that being said though, I think Dana cleared that particular situation up and it would seem that there was some deception employed during the process of her being hired.

As to hoodies in shopping malls, I'm a bit gobsmacked about that. Hoodies are the height of fashion over here during winter and I can't imagine why they'd be banned. Well I can imagine why they have been elsewhere and a case could be made for the same here, but I'd doubt it's solved any problems. With regard to the cricifix issue, it wasn't even a crucifix, It was simply a cross. There's a huge difference. Either way, I think it's a stupid company policy and staff should protest loudly about it.

[JayMcGee]

sorry, you'r right, it wasn't a crucifix, just a cross......



still got banned, though.......


and as for the Bluewater mall...... are Burkha's allowed in there?

[DanaC]

They should be, just as teenagers wearing hooded tops should be. But really, are we going to base our definition of tolerance on what some stupid commercial enterprise thinks is reasonable? And the cross wasn't banned. They asked staff not to wear them on the outside of their clothes, but under the shirt instead. I also think that was unreasonable. As unreasonable as telling a moslem woman that she shouldn't wear the veil in public.

[Ibby]

I dont agree with the fact that they did so, but I can totally see the logic.

Problem is, logic is far from everything.

[JayMcGee]

I'm sure I said this already........ I have no problem with people covering their faces in public.


mmmmm.......

[Aliantha]

specially the ugly ones huh?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

And yet thousands of Muslim women get to know each other every day.

Interesting argument, but it doesn't work.

By your logic, Muslim women in Burka's don't know anyone.

They only know women.

[Aliantha]

I don't think that's the case either. My argument was to Jay suggesting that a burka stops people from communicating. Obviously it does not.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I disagree, at least here, women wearing burkas (rarely) or veils (more common) do not talk to men they don't already know. It's impossible to start a conversation with them.

[CaliforniaMama]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I disagree, at least here, women wearing burkas (rarely) or veils (more common) do not talk to men they don't already know. It's impossible to start a conversation with them.

I back up Bruce here.

In Muslim tradition, women and men just don't interact (Edit per Husband ((backseat writer)): other than their relatives). The women generally tend to only know their own women friends and only unveil around these women in the privacy of their homes.

For a man to even look a Muslim woman in the eyes is a serious offense, hence the desire of the women to remove the temptation.

I heartily agree that being full covered is a dinstinct impediment to communication, for a number of reasons. We communicate by sight, by body language, by shape, by scent, by reading the expression in the eyes combined with the expression on the rest of the face. Someone in a burka becomes an anonymous blob, really. Not to be offensive to the one who chooses that garb, but more about what my impression is on the outside.

I haven't actually seen anyone around here in burka, just tons of hijab (the nun-like scarf around the head), but I could imagine it would be pretty off-putting, especially in a society that tends to communicate a lot through their use of style, or lack thereof.

Even the women I've seen in hijab don't make eye contact or act friendly. Even with each other, if they don't already know the other woman. It's really kind of awkward when our kids are playing at the park.

But that's all part of their culture, part of how they were raised and how they want things to continue to be.

I can see why the Dutch, or any Western nation, would be threatened by that. It totally changes, and challenges, the rules about how we present ourselves, how we chose to be perceived and how others perceive us. KWIM?

Further edit by hubby: (why doesn't he just sign up? grumble grumble grumble) Traditionally, Muslims live their entire lives within the walls of their homes. They don't have windows looking onto streets like we do. Their homes are literally surrounded by high walls.

In Algeria, when the Arabs saw the French with their big windows, they were appalled, thinking, "Why do I want to see inside this person's house?"

[WabUfvot5]

Have any of you lived in a very cold climate? Fact is inside or out people who are bundled up don't interact as much. There is an element of unknown to everything unless you know the person well. That said there is not much that can be done about the weather. It's silly to suggest it outright stops communication but it's a hindrance.

Once again, they are immigrants in public. If they want to be in a private setting and wear it fine. If they want to go to a country that allows it fine. If they want to go to the Netherlands the message I'm getting is you're going to become part of Dutch society.