XXXXX Them to Hell! New Katrina Video

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by marichiko

It was Bush and the Republicans who cut funding for maintaining this country's infra-structure...If you own ANYTHING you need to maintain it. That's common sense...Somehow, I can imagine W. pulling the same trick in his younger days.

The young are frequently foolish...one needn't look far to see *that* principle in action. Perhaps even so foolish as to think "what you can imagine happening" is relevant. But I missed the part where "maintaining this country's infrastructure" became a *Federal* mandate.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

The young are frequently foolish...one needn't look far to see *that* principle in action. Perhaps even so foolish as to think "what you can imagine happening" is relevant. But I missed the part where "maintaining this country's infrastructure" became a *Federal* mandate.

You're right. Let's go blow up the interstates. Stupid Federal government!

[Dagney]

Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.

Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....

[Undertoad]

Despite comments from a mental midget president, everyone expected the levees to be breached - and they were. The mental midget was told that repeatedly.

It turns out he was told repeatedly that they might be topped. The original story, page 4:

"I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not but that is obviously a very, very grave concern," Mayfield told the briefing.

This was clarified by the AP:

Clarification: Katrina-Video story
ASSOCIATED PRESS

WASHINGTON (AP) _ In a March 1 story, The Associated Press reported that federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees in New Orleans, citing confidential video footage of an Aug. 28 briefing among U.S. officials.

The Army Corps of Engineers considers a breach a hole developing in a levee rather than an overrun. The story should have made clear that Bush was warned about floodwaters overrunning the levees, rather than the levees breaking.

The day before the storm hit, Bush was told there were grave concerns that the levees could be overrun. It wasn't until the next morning, as the storm was hitting, that Michael Brown, then head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Bush had inquired about reports of breaches. Bush did not participate in that briefing.

Now, one might argue Bush doesn't have the mental capacity to comprehend the difference between topping and breaching. But we do, right? In one of them, a little water goes over the levee and the event is over. In the other, there's a catastrophic failure and the city is flooded. Agreed?

If we don't understand yet, let this blogger explain:

Personally, I expected topping of the levees, I expected water to run up I-10 into New Orleans East, I expected some of the inner city canal levees to be topped and some of the St. Bernard and Jefferson parish levees to be overtopped by the storm surge. I expected flooding, you always expect flooding in New Orleans during a hurricane, but then I expected the pumps to take over and pump the water out of the city. That was the defense plan for New Orleans. That's always been the plan. If water comes into the perimeter protected by levees, collect it in the canals and pump it out. A levee failure, like that experienced during Katrina, can't be "anticipated" because it's a catastrophic total failure of the levee. If you "anticipate" the breach of the levee, why even rely on the levee system at all, a breached levee might as well be no levee at all. For centuries New Orleans has relied on the levees to protect it, and for centuries, a levee breach was not "anticipated".

Levee "topping" however is a completely different story, and NO ONE has ever talked about not anticipating the levees being topped. In fact, almost everyone talked about them being topped.

Originally Posted by Dagney

Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.

Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....

Total Cost of the Interstate System ($Billions) in some recent years
as reported to congress (the Fed's share is the number in bold print)

1958 37.622 33.952
1961 41.000 37.000
1965 46.800 42.000
1968 56.500 50.640
1970 69.870 62.500
1972 76.300 68.260
1975 89.200 79.520
1977 104.300 93.240
1979 112.900 100.800
1981 133.932 119.685
1981 Rev 119.000 106.200
1983 123.300 109.900
1985 120.500 107.200
1987 121.000 107.600
1989 124.900 111.000
1991 128.900 114.300

The Revised 1981 Estimate reflects Interstate System completion as redefined by the 1981 Highway Act.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by marichiko

You're right. Let's go blow up the interstates. Stupid Federal government!

I thought you might mention that. Go look up where the National Defense Highway System came from, and why. Note that it's not an excuse to fob off all infrastructure responsibilities onto the Feds. Far from it. Thank goodness.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

I thought you might mention that. Go look up where the National Defense Highway System came from, and why. Note that it's not an excuse to fob off all infrastructure responsibilities onto the Feds. Far from it. Thank goodness.

Roosevelt, Truman and Ike pushed for it as part of the nation defense. The Feds still pay the lion's share of it to the present day. Levee's aren't as much a part of the national defense as Interstates?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Now, one might argue Bush doesn't have the mental capacity to comprehend the difference between topping and breaching. But we do, right? In one of them, a little water goes over the levee and the event is over. In the other, there's a catastrophic failure and the city is flooded. Agreed?

No. Topping is not like the water that slops over the edge of a swimming pool, splash, splash, mop it up.
National Geographic and Smithsonian plus a show on Discovery or PBS (forget which), years ago, explained how a storm larger than cat 3 could raise the level of the lake 4 to six feet higher than the levees. In that scenario there aren't enough pumps in the country to keep New Orleans from flooding. Especially when you consider; A- most of the pumps don't have their own power supply and B- the pump crews were evacuated before the shit hit the fan.
Breach or not, in a big storm they're screwed and FEMA should have known it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Dagney

Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.

Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....

The Feds have no highway department so they hire the states to do the actual work and pay them with the Federal Highway Trust Fund which is funded by fuel taxes they collect.
Federal Motor Fuel Excise Tax is 18.4 cents on gasoline, 13.6 cents on LPG, 24.4 cents on diesel fuel, 18.4 cents on gasohol, 19.4 cents on aviation gas, and 4.4 cents on jet fuel.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by marichiko

Levee's aren't as much a part of the national defense as Interstates?

Erm...no.

As far as I can see, levees only "defend" the land they're protecting from the water that the land would be under if it weren't for the levees. Such land doesn't need "defending" unless you've decided to live there...in whch case I'm highly disinterested in sharing the cost of your folly, whether it's there, on the Jersey Shore, or on the Outer Banks. If there's some other national defense implication to the levees in NO you'll have to point it out more clearly.

Ike supported the highways because he had experience trying to move troops and material overland during WWI.

After Hurricane Dianne, the Corps of Engineers came though and rebuilt the bridge from New Hope to Lambertville. I was never satisified as to the explanation of why that was their job, but I was glad they did it...the ice cream shop was on the Jersey side.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Breach or not, in a big storm they're screwed and FEMA should have known it.

Everybody knew it. It is why Mayor Nagin got on the radio Saturday night with a personal appeal for everyone to leave New Orleans. A famous and retired judge in NO was not going to leave until he heard that Saturday night appeal. Katrina struck Monday morning which is why that Judge safely got out of town.

Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center was so concerned that he did something he never did. Not once ever in something like 20 years. Max personally called every major leader. He did this to make sure everyone knew that Katrina was the big one. Did he call the president? Never said. But the president and everyone in that video conference were told this was the worst case disaster of Hurricane Pam and all previous simulations. Hurricane Pam was the disaster that everyone knew to be the worst possible disaster. (Notice it was known to be so bad that I used the word 'the' multiple times.) So bad that Max Mayfield did something he never does. Personally call warnings to everyone. Katrina was that much a disaster. Only reason that top management could not know - by definition - that person would have to be anti-America.

From those video tapes, Brown also knew this AND was literally begging -all but got on his knees - begged everyone to even violate rules to get him assistance. IOW he knew from Hurricane Pam that he was in trouble and was telling that to a mental midget president.

George Jr - as any mental midget would do - sat there, listened, never asked a single question, and never gave any direction. Even the Three Stoogers would have been better leaders. But then the mental midget president is also an MBA. No way around the reality of that fact either.

Contrast this with a leader who - by definition - was patriotic. During the upper Mississippi floods that were easily of same scale, Clinton asked incisive questions AND provided direction. Clinton did what anyone with minimal intelligence would do. Therefore those Upper Mississippi floods were only another interesting news story. What the mental midget president did was condemn some people to death. George Jr literally meets the definition of anti-American as well as someone with an MBA background. In fact, using the definition of patriotic American, even bin Laden is a better patriotic American than George Jr. At least bin Laden grasps reality. No wonder George Jr did not try to get bin Laden. It required him to make a decision - to ask incisive questions - which George Jr never once did even the entire day of 11 September 2001.

Is above an insult? Insults do not come supported by five years of examples and blunt facts. In every disaster, George Jr did nothing while people were dying. Not just in New Orleans. During 911 and the Indian Ocean Tsunami are previous examples. Never forget where the USS Lincoln task group sat for five days doing nothing as George Jr fiddled. Never forget where the USS Bataan sat for five days as George Jr fiddled. Facts that Rush Limbaugh liars hope good American don’t learn.

Does George Jr know who Nero was? No, it was more important to go to CA on a campaign fund raiser. There is no way for a single decent American to deny these facts. None whatsoever. George Jr has only done again what everyone should expect from a mental midget - with a history of letting people die - and then casting blame elsewhere.

Anyone who disputes this better have hard ass facts - and video tape. Fans of George Jr - hearafter called fools - cannot dispute this without lying - without posting classic Rush Limbaugh half truths and propaganda. IOW fans of George Jr would have to be as anti-American as the mental midget to deny this post.

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

After Hurricane Dianne, the Corps of Engineers came though and rebuilt the bridge from New Hope to Lambertville. I was never satisified as to the explanation of why that was their job, but I was glad they did it...the ice cream shop was on the Jersey side.

But the better biker bars were on the New Hope side. We didn't need NJ's ice cream. Don't worry. Drink happy.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

But the better biker bars were on the New Hope side.

Not in 1955.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

Everybody knew it...mental midget president...mental midget ...Three Stoogers...mental midget president...Clinton...by definition patriotic did what anyone with minimal intelligence would do...What the mental midget president did was condemn some people to death....literally meets the definition of anti-American...bin Laden is a better...bin Laden grasps reality. ...George Jr did not try to get bin Laden....George Jr did nothing while people were dying....Does George Jr know who Nero was?...There is no way for a single decent American to deny these facts...mental midget - with a history of letting people die...Anyone who disputes this better have hard ass facts...Fans of George Jr - hearafter called fools - cannot dispute this without lying...half truths and propaganda...fans of George Jr would have to be as anti-American as the mental midget to deny this post.

No wonder nobody listens to the left anymore.

Originally Posted by MaggieL

After Hurricane Dianne, the Corps of Engineers came though and rebuilt the bridge from New Hope to Lambertville. I was never satisified as to the explanation of why that was their job, but I was glad they did it...the ice cream shop was on the Jersey side.

No wonder nobody listens to the right, anymore.

By the way, I want my tax dollars back for your ice cream.