Rick Santorum: "mainline Protestants aren't real Christians"

[Ibby]

I've seen it reported as an induced miscarriage everywhere I've seen it mentioned. In fact, Joe Klein's post there is the first I've heard of it referred to as a simple miscarriage without medical induction. I'd love to see more information on that. Obviously without actually invading her medical records, all we have are media reports; again, I've seen it consistently referred to as a miscarriage, yes, but an INDUCED LABOR miscarriage is, in effect, an abortion.
The link I gave, which I think is the same one Spexx posted, claims that the Santorums themselves refer to it as a medically induced procedure. If that's true, then my point holds. If it was an unrelated and "natural" miscarriage, that's QUITE a bit different.

[classicman]

Induced labor does NOT necessarily mean a miscarriage nor abortion.
Two of my children were born after labor was induced.
Many times labor is induced because the baby is getting too big for a vaginal delivery.
There are other reasons as well which have NOTHING to do with "abortion"

• The mothers water broke.
• Infection in the uterus
• Certain risk factors
• low amniotic fluid level
• Placenta problems
• and on and on...

PLEASE do not spread that type of misinformation.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by classicman

Induced labor does NOT necessarily mean a miscarriage nor abortion.

Of course it doesn't. Induced labor means induced labor. I'm not equating labor with miscarriage. I'm equating INDUCED MISCARRIAGE with abortion. Inducing labor in the second trimester for a fetus that the doctors recommend should be aborted, that isn't expected to have any chance of survival with the labor is induced, resulting in a miscarriage or stillbirth, is functionally an abortion. Granted, if by some miracle the induced labor had been SURVIVED, the premature and sickly baby would be a baby, yes - but the only difference between inducing labor to cause a miscarriage and an abortion is that in the former case, the fetus, in theory, leaves the body in one piece, out the birth canal.

reading comprehension, dude, before you get all defensive at me. Here's what I said:

An INDUCED LABOR miscarriage is, in effect, an abortion.

here's what I DIDN'T say:

inducing labor is the same as aborting

My understanding of what "medically induced miscarriage" means, is that labor is induced. If "induced labor miscarriage" and "medically induced miscarriage" are not synonymous, I retract my flawed terminology.

[Happy Monkey]

If the baby isn't viable (as in this context), then induced labor is abortion.
Eta: What Ibram said.

[classicman]

An INDUCED LABOR miscarriage is, in effect, an abortion.

THIS IS FUCKING WRONG

Not getting defensive at all - If anything, I'm being offensive...
(take it away IM)

[Rhianne]

Is this relevant? The woman isn't his property. Are we voting for Santorum or his wife?

Yes, neither, I know!

[classicman]

No its not relevant, at all. Its one side continually talking about issues that have nothing to do with what is really important to our country right now and the other side laughing and egging them on.

No, not many people will be voting for Rick. I had more than my fill of him when he was here. He needs to go out and get a real job at a real company now.

[Aliantha]

OK, I don't believe there's any such thing as 'Induced Labour Miscarriage/abortion'.

If the doctors don't think there's any chance the baby will survive, then they perform a termination. If they think the baby has a chance then they will induce labour (and I'm not sure what the time frame is, but I don't believe they will give the mother drugs to commence labour until the baby has lungs which function, which can't happen till at least 32 weeks gestation. Prior to that, if the baby is to be born early term under a doctors recommendation, I think you will find that in almost every case, a C section will be performed because the baby simply wouldn't survive the upheaval of a natural birth before that age. Of course there are always going to be women going into labour much earlier than they should and in that case, the goal posts are moved substantially.

What I'm trying to tell you men is that there is no hard and fast set of rules you can apply to this situation, so stop bickering about something you clearly don't know much about in the first place other than your own personal belief systems.

[Clodfobble]

In the interview I saw, Santorum got immediately, extremely defensive when the interviewer said he'd had a "stillborn" child, and corrected him strongly that it was not stillborn, that it lived 2 hours before dying.

I'm pretty sure this was the same child being discussed here. I imagine they induced labor, knowing the baby almost certainly wouldn't survive, but the fact that it lived two hours and then died (presumably after a quick baptizing as well) means they get to have a clear conscience.

[Ibby]

If it lives for two hours, is it a miscarriage? Like, I'mi not try'n'a be funny, is the term miscarriage usable if the child survives however briefly outside the body?
Again, my understanding of this situation is that Santorum has used the term "medically induced miscarriage" - which, though classic is loudly denying it without explaining the difference, I understand as functionally being abortive. If the situation is as Clod posits, there isn't much hypocrisy here. If the situation is what Klein seems to imply - that there was a decision NOT to abort, and then she miscarried later - there isn't much hypocrisy here.

If the Santorums decided to save Karen's life at the expense of her unborn child, there is hypocrisy here.

[Aliantha]

Not it's not a miscarriage if it lives for even a minute. It's considered a live birth.

[Happy Monkey]

On a non-Santorum-specific tangent:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

OK, I don't believe there's any such thing as 'Induced Labour Miscarriage/abortion'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_labor

Common suggested reasons for induction include:

...

• Premature termination of the pregnancy (abortion).

...

It also lists fetal death (and I know I've heard of people inducing labor for dead fetuses), so there are at least two possible reasons to induce labor on a non-viable fetus.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Not it's not a miscarriage if it lives for even a minute. It's considered a live birth.

That's what I thought - if my article is referencing the same pregnancy as Clod, then using the term miscarriage - medically induced or otherwise - is wrong, and the debate is prettymuch over on that count.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Not it's not a miscarriage if it lives for even a minute. It's considered a live birth.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by classicman

No its not relevant, at all. Its one side continually talking about issues that have nothing to do with what is really important to our country right now and the other side laughing and egging them on.

No, not many people will be voting for Rick. I had more than my fill of him when he was here. He needs to go out and get a real job at a real company now.

Not exactly sure what you mean. The religious right is certainly making an issue concerning the separation of Church and State which IS important to our country right now, and, as has been noted elsewhere, it is exactly these whack jobs who will come out and vote in numbers just as they did in 2008. I can easily see fundamentalists voting strongly for Santorum, especially in the South.

The people residing in states below the Mason Dixon line still fiercely believe in State's Rights and hope for the South to "rise again". In addition, they are just as fanatical about Christian fundamentalism as the Muslims who flew the planes into the WTC were fanatical about Mohammedism. They are incapable of seeing that their stance on birth control, gays, etc is a bias based on the teachings of their evangelical churches. And they can't wait to impose their beliefs on the entire nation.