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Current Events Help understand the world by talking about things happening in it |
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#16 |
We have to go back, Kate!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,964
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I didn't see that Sundae. That's pretty unpleasant.
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#17 |
The future is unwritten
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
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C'mon tw, you can't "Deming" a war. It can't be "engineered", "5-Sed", "Quality controlled" or "Just in timed" either.
Despite all the planning, rules, procedures and rehearsals, where the rubber meets the road you're going to have humans making split second decisions under extreme pressure. Accidents will happen, wrong choices will be made, people will screw up sometimes. You can try to minimize the occurrences and the damage they can produce from each occurrence, but they will happen as long as people are involved. ![]()
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The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. |
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#18 |
Read? I only know how to write.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
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Everything we do is traceable to human failure. All failures are avoidable. That is Deming's principle. And yes it even applies to war. Was that blue-on-blue incident avoidable? Of course. It was created by repeated human failures. They even saw the orange markings and ignored them. They fired without waiting for permission - another violation. This death is directly traceable to human failure made even worse because another Deming principle is being violated. A cover up rather than correcting the reason for failure.
Even car crashes are not accidents. Crashes are created by human failure - avoidable events created because due caution and other 'defensive techniques' were not implemented. Meanwhile Just in Time is not a Deming technique. But it is made possible due to what Deming taught. Quality Control circles (as so often implemented) are how MBAs pretend they understand Deming. But again, that also has nothing to do with blue-on-blue which was directly traceable to completely avoidable human failure. |
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#19 |
The future is unwritten
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
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I concede blue on blue could probably been prevented if they had stuck to the book. It apparently unfolded at a pace where that was possible.
That said, war is such that individuals will be put in situations where they must react instantaneously, kill or be killed in their view. Mistakes will always be made, it's a human trait that fear trumps logic or rules. ![]()
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The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. |
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#20 | |
Master Locutor
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
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Quote:
I'm paraphrasing here but he said something along the lines of the pilot was a hero, America needed more heroes like him and so did the world. Surely not because he killed British troops!...But maybe because he risks his life everyday but as a human was involved in an accident? |
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#21 | |
Master Locutor
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
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Quote:
But again, Ronald Cherrycoke is demonstrating for all how a brown shirt thinks. The only Brown Shirts I see here are the lefty Brown Shirts like you that parrot left wing propaganda talking points without checking facts. you would have fit right at home in Goebbles propaganda dept....or better yet Stalins...maybe you could get Winston Smith`s old job with the Ministry Of Truth. Clearly failure happened. The problem is not that failure happened. The problem is that a Ronald Cherrycoke mentality exists to hide the failure rather than address it and fix it. Blue on blue occurs do to human failures. The first step to avoiding it is to acknowledge it was completely avoidable. Ronald Cherrycoke, instead, assumes all failures are situation normal - SNAFU. That attitude is contemptable - explains why he also so hates the troops. But I do want to fix it.... and so does the military but like in life accidents are largely unavoidable. Ronald - this is the part where you learn about the world. Learn about why failure is not an option. Start by learning Deming and why failures are traceable only to those who all but want failures. Failures are not accidents...surely you have learned this in the world? |
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#22 | |
Master Locutor
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
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#23 | |
Master Locutor
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
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Quote:
Sounds like something Mr. Spock would say or HAL....Haaaaaa.....Haaaaa... |
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#24 |
Pump my ride!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Deep countryside of Surrey , England
Posts: 1,890
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You'll never even have the chance to learn and improve if you ignore the evidence - as tw points out there were serious lapses in procedures yet it appears that no one saw these as worthy of attention - the wrong message is delivered as a result, namely that it's OK to screw up. War scenario or not if no attempt is made to remedy the mistakes then they stand to be repeated. Not a nice thought to carry as you go into battle. It reminds me in a way of my visit to the Somme this year when we learned of the mass graves that had been dug ready for the dead the generals expected after the day's fighting, and how the troops route to the front line meant they marched right past them. Not exactly the sort of picture you want to have planted in your memory - maybe now hearing the buzz of a tank-buster overhead when you're in a personnel carrier with orange stripes on it might produce a similar effect....
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Always sufficient hills - never sufficient gears |
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#25 | |
Master Locutor
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
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Quote:
No soldier ever wants to kill a fellow soldier or an allied soldier for any account...but it happens and since wars began it has happened over and over again...accidents will happen. Maybe personal GPS`s or ID`s in the future will help? |
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#26 |
Pump my ride!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Deep countryside of Surrey , England
Posts: 1,890
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Agree with you RC that it happens and will doubtless continue to happen, but what is gruelling is the complacency within the forces - something which from your earlier postings you appear to endorse (sorry if I get that wrong, but that's how it comes across) - that there is nothing worth doing to try to improve the situation.
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Always sufficient hills - never sufficient gears |
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#27 | |
Master Locutor
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
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#28 |
Pump my ride!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Deep countryside of Surrey , England
Posts: 1,890
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Always sufficient hills - never sufficient gears |
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#29 | |
Read? I only know how to write.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
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#30 |
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