Failed procedures = friendly fire = loss of life

[DanaC]

I didn't see that Sundae. That's pretty unpleasant.

[xoxoxoBruce]

C'mon tw, you can't "Deming" a war. It can't be "engineered", "5-Sed", "Quality controlled" or "Just in timed" either.
Despite all the planning, rules, procedures and rehearsals, where the rubber meets the road you're going to have humans making split second decisions under extreme pressure. Accidents will happen, wrong choices will be made, people will screw up sometimes.
You can try to minimize the occurrences and the damage they can produce from each occurrence, but they will happen as long as people are involved.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

C'mon tw, you can't "Deming" a war.

Everything we do is traceable to human failure. All failures are avoidable. That is Deming's principle. And yes it even applies to war. Was that blue-on-blue incident avoidable? Of course. It was created by repeated human failures. They even saw the orange markings and ignored them. They fired without waiting for permission - another violation. This death is directly traceable to human failure made even worse because another Deming principle is being violated. A cover up rather than correcting the reason for failure.

Even car crashes are not accidents. Crashes are created by human failure - avoidable events created because due caution and other 'defensive techniques' were not implemented.

Meanwhile Just in Time is not a Deming technique. But it is made possible due to what Deming taught. Quality Control circles (as so often implemented) are how MBAs pretend they understand Deming. But again, that also has nothing to do with blue-on-blue which was directly traceable to completely avoidable human failure.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I concede blue on blue could probably been prevented if they had stuck to the book. It apparently unfolded at a pace where that was possible.
That said, war is such that individuals will be put in situations where they must react instantaneously, kill or be killed in their view. Mistakes will always be made, it's a human trait that fear trumps logic or rules.

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Did you see the man interviewed in the pilot's home town on ITV last night?

I'm paraphrasing here but he said something along the lines of the pilot was a hero, America needed more heroes like him and so did the world. America was trying to stamp out terrorism and our whole little country and all of Europe too needed to stop sucking our thumbs like we did in World War 2. America didn't need our help as they knew we couldn't communicate, move and shoot at the same time, but they needed our cooperation.....

It was deeply unpleasant to watch, but what annoyed me was the fact that ITV chose to broadcast it. I doubt they could have found a more divisive clip to show if they'd scripted it themselves. Why they feel people goaded into a knee-jerk us-and-them reaction (both the man interviewed and those watching) will help the matter I don't know.

I'm paraphrasing here but he said something along the lines of the pilot was a hero, America needed more heroes like him and so did the world.

Surely not because he killed British troops!...But maybe because he risks his life everyday but as a human was involved in an accident?

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by tw

Ronald Cherrycoke posts that because failure had happened, then failures must always happen. Same reasoning from Townsend and Richardo to run Chrysler into near bankruptcy. Same reason used by Roger Smith to claim failures are acceptable as he destroy American jobs and lives.

When GM managers went to Japan, they see assmebly lines without 25% of the products pulled aside for rework. Another Cherrycoke type claims Japan must be hiding their product failures? No. To that GM executive, failure was acceptable. Sound familiar, Ronald? It was a mindset common among WWI military commanders who would sacrifice millions to machine guns rather than admit the military commander was defective.

But again, Ronald Cherrycoke is demonstrating for all how a brown shirt thinks. It is normal and acceptable to have blue on blue? Failure is acceptable. It explains his contempt for the American soldier - as well as soldiers of NATO allies.

Clearly failure happened. The problem is not that failure happened. The problem is that a Ronald Cherrycoke mentality exists to hide the failure rather than address it and fix it. Blue on blue occurs do to human failures. The first step to avoiding it is to acknowledge it was completely avoidable. Ronald Cherrycoke, instead, assumes all failures are situation normal - SNAFU. That attitude is contemptable - explains why he also so hates the troops.

Ronald - this is the part where you learn about the world. Learn about why failure is not an option. Start by learning Deming and why failures are traceable only to those who all but want failures.

But again, Ronald Cherrycoke is demonstrating for all how a brown shirt thinks.

The only Brown Shirts I see here are the lefty Brown Shirts like you that parrot left wing propaganda talking points without checking facts. you would have fit right at home in Goebbles propaganda dept....or better yet Stalins...maybe you could get Winston Smith`s old job with the Ministry Of Truth.



Clearly failure happened. The problem is not that failure happened. The problem is that a Ronald Cherrycoke mentality exists to hide the failure rather than address it and fix it. Blue on blue occurs do to human failures. The first step to avoiding it is to acknowledge it was completely avoidable. Ronald Cherrycoke, instead, assumes all failures are situation normal - SNAFU. That attitude is contemptable - explains why he also so hates the troops.


But I do want to fix it.... and so does the military but like in life accidents are largely unavoidable.


Ronald - this is the part where you learn about the world. Learn about why failure is not an option. Start by learning Deming and why failures are traceable only to those who all but want failures.


Failures are not accidents...surely you have learned this in the world?

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

C'mon tw, you can't "Deming" a war. It can't be "engineered", "5-Sed", "Quality controlled" or "Just in timed" either.
Despite all the planning, rules, procedures and rehearsals, where the rubber meets the road you're going to have humans making split second decisions under extreme pressure. Accidents will happen, wrong choices will be made, people will screw up sometimes.
You can try to minimize the occurrences and the damage they can produce from each occurrence, but they will happen as long as people are involved.

I thought that was what the "Whiz Kid" Robert MacNamara tried to do with the Vietnam war...and look how that turned out.

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by tw

Everything we do is traceable to human failure. All failures are avoidable. That is Deming's principle. And yes it even applies to war. Was that blue-on-blue incident avoidable? Of course. It was created by repeated human failures. They even saw the orange markings and ignored them. They fired without waiting for permission - another violation. This death is directly traceable to human failure made even worse because another Deming principle is being violated. A cover up rather than correcting the reason for failure.

Even car crashes are not accidents. Crashes are created by human failure - avoidable events created because due caution and other 'defensive techniques' were not implemented.

Meanwhile Just in Time is not a Deming technique. But it is made possible due to what Deming taught. Quality Control circles (as so often implemented) are how MBAs pretend they understand Deming. But again, that also has nothing to do with blue-on-blue which was directly traceable to completely avoidable human failure.

Sounds like something Mr. Spock would say or HAL....Haaaaaa.....Haaaaa...

[Cyclefrance]

You'll never even have the chance to learn and improve if you ignore the evidence - as tw points out there were serious lapses in procedures yet it appears that no one saw these as worthy of attention - the wrong message is delivered as a result, namely that it's OK to screw up. War scenario or not if no attempt is made to remedy the mistakes then they stand to be repeated. Not a nice thought to carry as you go into battle. It reminds me in a way of my visit to the Somme this year when we learned of the mass graves that had been dug ready for the dead the generals expected after the day's fighting, and how the troops route to the front line meant they marched right past them. Not exactly the sort of picture you want to have planted in your memory - maybe now hearing the buzz of a tank-buster overhead when you're in a personnel carrier with orange stripes on it might produce a similar effect....

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

You'll never even have the chance to learn and improve if you ignore the evidence - as tw points out there were serious lapses in procedures yet it appears that no one saw these as worthy of attention - the wrong message is delivered as a result, namely that it's OK to screw up. War scenario or not if no attempt is made to remedy the mistakes then they stand to be repeated. Not a nice thought to carry as you go into battle. It reminds me in a way of my visit to the Somme this year when we learned of the mass graves that had been dug ready for the dead the generals expected after the day's fighting, and how the troops route to the front line meant they marched right past them. Not exactly the sort of picture you want to have planted in your memory - maybe now hearing the buzz of a tank-buster overhead when you're in a personnel carrier with orange stripes on it might produce a similar effect....

No soldier ever wants to kill a fellow soldier or an allied soldier for any account...but it happens and since wars began it has happened over and over again...accidents will happen. Maybe personal GPS`s or ID`s in the future will help?

[Cyclefrance]

Agree with you RC that it happens and will doubtless continue to happen, but what is gruelling is the complacency within the forces - something which from your earlier postings you appear to endorse (sorry if I get that wrong, but that's how it comes across) - that there is nothing worth doing to try to improve the situation.

[Ronald Cherrycoke]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

Agree with you RC that it happens and will doubtless continue to happen, but what is gruelling is the complacency within the forces - something which from your earlier postings you appear to endorse (sorry if I get that wrong, but that's how it comes across) - that there is nothing worth doing to try to improve the situation.

Not complacency...but with first hand knowledge that in the heat of combat things can go horribly wrong. Maybe in the future there will be individual "Smart bombs or bullets"...who knows?

[Cyclefrance]

Coroner's verdict

[tw]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

Coroner's verdict

There remains this gorilla in the room that no one wants to talk about. Pilots are provided with stimulants to stay sharp during combat flights. These drugs have a nasty habit of modifying the thought process; can make a pilot 'trigger-happy'. In this case, the pilots saw the 'friendly' markings and were not given permission to attack. They let themselves be confused by one who said no friendlies that far north. Two facts say to not attack. A third only implies it may be enemy. With drugs, and long flight times (Warthogs stay out for long patrols), well, no one wants to discuss the drugs.

Originally Posted by Griff

That was a terrible turn of events. We lost another local soldier about two weeks ago. I think they buried him yesterday. I really don't think the politicians understand what they commit to when they make war.

Their kids are not in the war... big part of it.