violence problem? ya think?

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

But one way even peaceful Muslims contribute to this problem is when they are reluctant to criticise or distance themselves from their more violent and autocratic coreligionists; this silence is widely taken as tacit endorsement, and leads to bogus accusations of religious prejudice against those who oppose them.

I don't see a vast majority of Muslims endorsing violence by silence or by distancing themselves. We have a perfect example. How was that recent terrorist ring detected in London? Muslims in large (and vague) numbers went to the police with their concerns about this small group. As this small group attempted to recruit from their mosque, those other mosque members then went to the police. Reported in such great numbers that British security was all over that plot from its very start.

Is that Muslims distancing themselves from their radical brethen? Or do a vast number of responsible Muslims just not get reported in the press - not appear on maps? I see many radical Christians as I see radical Muslims. Those Christians that worry me most are the same that also feel concealed weapons are necessary; who 'feel' their enemies are everywhere.

How are concealed weapon laws and Christianity related?
I feel the laws protecting concealed weapons should be protected... I am not a Christian, nor do I think it has anything to do with religion in any way. I just don't see how you make that jump.

[BigV]

tw is nothing if not agile.

[tw]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

How are concealed weapon laws and Christianity related?

Do all Christians fear? Of course not. Do we all need concealed weapons to be safer. Of course not. Did you get that far into the post? Good. "Mission Accomplished". Who has the next question.....

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

Do we all need concealed weapons to be safer. Of course not.

Whatsamatter, tw, did you flunk the Instacheck? Was it just a past felony, or was it a record of involuntary mental comittment? I know *I'm* safer with my sidearm. But you might not be...if you're not up to the responsibilty, you should stay away from it. They defiinately are not for "us all".

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

I don't see a vast majority of Muslims endorsing violence by silence or by distancing themselves.

Those were contradictory propositions. A person who is silent is obviously not distancing themselves.

You've presented one counterexample in a span of at least five years. Have you any others? It's not happening often enough.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by BigV

Specifically, MaggieL, if it is indeed true that...then you do have direct experience of the terrain. Additionally, you may have an elaborate system of maps. But responding to the map while ignoring the terrain is not wise.

Experience is itself "an elaborate system of maps", too. Perception operates by trying to construct a model--a map--by interpreting sensory input. But it's still a system of maps and models, from beginning to end. Nobody has "direct experience of the terrain". When you believe you do (which is apparently a part of the map you're offering to share), you're actually only reifying one particular map.

No, thanks...I'll steer by my own lights.

Originally Posted by tw

Do all Christians fear? Of course not. Do we all need concealed weapons to be safer. Of course not. Did you get that far into the post? Good. "Mission Accomplished". Who has the next question.....

Again, feeling safer has nothing to do with it. You keep making assumptions and speaking for others, does not work.
Someone asked you?

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

One is a prediction, the other a threat.

You don't find the thought of your everlasting soul burning in hell for all eternity and being told so by someone who is supposed to be a figure of authority threatening?

The Catholic religion is based on threats designed to keep people in line. There is no difference. According to Catholics, your body isn't the thing that matters anyway. It's the torture of the soul that's the killer. This is basic stuff Maggie. I expected you to catch on quicker than that!

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You don't find the thought of your everlasting soul burning in hell for all eternity and being told so by someone who is supposed to be a figure of authority threatening?The Catholic religion is based on threats designed to keep people in line. There is no difference.

Nonsense. 'God will hurt you later' is very, very different from 'I'm going to hurt you now.' The former only works on believers, the latter applies to everyone.

[Aliantha]

Well that depends on whether you think your body or your soul is more important.

[Aliantha]

In any case, both statements are motivated by religious beliefs and as such, demonstrate that there's not much difference between the two for the believers of either one. A Catholic is motivated to follow the laws of the Church in order to avoid going to hell. A Muslim is motivated to follow the laws of the Church in order to get into heaven.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You don't find the thought of your everlasting soul burning in hell for all eternity and being told so by someone who is supposed to be a figure of authority threatening?

No, because I don't beleive it. A threat has to be backed by credible capability. I beleve in jihadist capability. The Catholic God doesn't worrry me much.

And the bogus "moral equivalance" argument fails again.

Do you really find "Convert to Christianity and live by its rules or after you die you will be judged before God and condemned to eternal torment" to be the same as "Convert to Islam and live by its rules or my brother will blow himself up in your pizza shop with a Semtex vest full of nails, which will kill you, whereupon you will be judged before Allah and condemned to eternal torment".

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

A Catholic is motivated to follow the laws of the Church in order to avoid going to hell. A Muslim is motivated to follow the laws of the Church in order to get into heaven.

I'm a Catholic. I'm motivated by a desire to leave this world better than when I arrived. A medieval construct of hell does not figure into it. In my experience, there is a vanishing minority for whom hell is a motivator and that is terrible but please don't assume that motivates most educated first world Catholics. It may be that in places like the Phillipines the lack of rationality in the faith is comparable to that of extremists in other religions and there your comparison might hold water.

We (American Catholics) have our nuts but they don't hold much power because of the structure of the Church. The mentality for most of the anti-rationalists is that their passion for the Church is expressed by a willingness to submit themselves to the authority of Church leaders, whose natural conservatism is a buttress against radicalism. I normally prefer decentralized power but that is not working for Islam right now and maybe doesn't always work where the dangerous rather than uplifting passions of religion are concerned. That heaven motivator you write of is probably much more powerful in a third world situation as well since the great masses of people have little tying them to this world. Unfortunately, there are some unhealthy ideas in the world as to how heaven is to be attained because of the fragmented nature of Islam. As always, I could be completely off base.

[Spexxvet]

Is there a difference between "convert or die" and "kill all who are not our religion"?