Understanding terrorism

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

So... what made Bali a target?
What made Madrid a target?....

Lots of root causes to address here

Numerous isolated cases to make a pre-ordained point. Examples selected to forget the so many other acts of terrorism that go unreported. Then we add the others that did get reported. For example, what destroyed the Air India 747 over the Indian Ocean? What destroyed a French 747 over Africa? Why were French ships routinely shelled as the left the southern end of the Red Sea? What about the bombing of a German nightclub? The bombing of US Marines and French troops in Lebanon. The bombing of the King David hotel in Jerusalem. Who almost took out the Radisson Hotel in Amman Jordan? And why?

Remember myths about electric lines causing strange childhood diseases? Yes, myths. The study selectively chose their examples. From those selected examples, a pre-ordained conclusion about childhood leukemia created by electric lines was obtained.

UT is doing same thing here with selective violence. Selected first to inflame. If UT really wanted to understand the answer, he would have started with all terrorist events back to 1400s when Muslim Brotherhood was founded (I believe it was in what is now Turkey). He would have included the so many acts of violence and bloody riots recently in the many Ka'stan countries north of Iran. He would have included Assad's massacre of 10,000 civilians because he so feared the Muslim Brotherhood - and for good reason. And don't forget the concentration camps by Serbs for Muslim Bosnians.

But again, that goes to phony assumptions posted up top. Invent an Al Qaeda to blame for everything. Then one gets mythical and simplistic conclusions that one seeks. By not ignoring the nonsense about Al Qaeda this and Al Qaeda that, then one still does not comprehend what, who, why, or where the enemy really is.

Add to that list the murder of Sadat of Egypt. Without a complete list, then the examples are useless for drawing conclusions. If you intentionally distort the examples as George Jr does - blame everything on Al Qaeda - then you get the monolithic enemy he promotes. You get the silly enemy promoted on an embarrassing TV show called NCIS. A show designed for the dumb, ass kicking, enlisted man we need hyped so that he can even become cannon fodder.

Want to stop the violence? Just like in Vietnam, stop inventing enemies such as we did in Vietnam. Suddenly the enemy was Russia, and China, and world wide Communism. In reality is was about a civil war inspired in part by a corrupt S Vietnam government combined with a silly fear of communism everywhere (called McCarthyism).

Until you can describe the actions, intentions, philosophy, etc of the Muslim Brotherhood, then you cannot even say who the enemy is, let alone stop it. This has been ongoing for hundreds of years. You want to stop it. First understand it. Start by understanding what the Muslim Brotherhood really is.

[Trilby]

tw--and before I say anything, let me tell you how pretty I think you are--are you suggesting that your "Muslim Brotherhood" is an INVENTED enemy? How many Muslims do you know on a personal level? None? One? Two? You know, I hate Bush as much as the next guy, really, but trying to understand a person who would happily, joyfully blow himself up just to off some innocent civilians? That's a hatred I can't begin to know.

[tw]

Originally Posted by russotto

And if the root cause is simply that they like killing Westerners? That they find our very infidel existence intolerable?

All this violence was long ongoing for hundreds of years before we decided to save them from themselves. Massacres in the name of fundamentalism and to eliminate fundamentalism occurred without even an historical footnote. Now we too are stuck in the quicksand because somehow we were going to fix something we did not even understand.

Only a misinformed fool would think Islamic Fundamentalism is only about killing westerners. Westerners were rarely a target until after 1 Aug 1990. In fact, some Islamic Fundamentalists once welcomed Americans as friends or honest brokers. What changed? Without that answer, then the whole thread started by Lookout123 will only be a waste of time.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Brianna

How many Muslims do you know on a personal level? None? One? Two?

Remember the crash of the Egypt Airliner? The co-pilot transcript as he was crashing the plane into the sea? My Arab friends kept saying the translation was completely inaccurate. That those exact same words would be said for a completely different meaning. You do remember that the US government finally admitted to some translation error - how long ago?

They also tell me the Koran is not properly represented in English. Another from Tunisia was just recently complained how an English translation had completely distorted the Arab intent. She said she did not even recognize the English version.

Now I don't understand this distortion in translation. I take their word for what they tell me because so many Arab friends (who don't even know one another) have told me the same thing. The actual meaning of the Koran is often distorted when not in Arabic. This from someone whose Arab is limited to words such as Shocrum. This is from someone who has no Arab friends?

BTW, I sometimes read some advanced math books. Who most often asks questions about all that messy math? Rarely the traditional Americans. Often those Arab friends get curious because they also took that math in Egypt or Morroco. Makes we wonder who in America really has enough technical knowledge to innovate.

But then I don't have Arab friends?

Meanwhile, the Muslim Brotherhood was not described as an invented enemy. Curiously, the Muslim Brotherhood is also a topic that my Arab friends seem to avoid discussing. Found it curious why they tend to avoid the topic.

[lookout123]

it looks like you are slipping - you forgot to insert my name into that post.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by tw

Remember the crash of the Egypt Airliner? The co-pilot transcript as he was crashing the plane into the sea? My Arab friends kept saying the translation was completely inaccurate.

So, what was the reported version vs. your friends' version?

They also tell me the Koran is not properly represented in English.

Having read the Koran in it's entirety, I'm interested in this statement ... in what way is The Koran misrepresented? What is the flavor that it's supposed to have?

Arab/Islamic terrorism for political gain seems to have gotten started in the late 1960s, which is the time at which hijackers stopped demanding to go to Cuba (never quite understood that one, must have been the nice beaches) and started going to Syria

US planes have been hijacked by terrorists on multiple occasions through the 1970s. Iranian "students" took The US Embassy workers hostage in 1979, and things have escalated ever since.

Where'd you get the 1990 date?

[Undertoad]

Not al-Qaeda?

Al-Qaeda bomb link is confirmed

THE British-born mastermind of the London attacks had direct links with al-Qaeda, police sources confirmed yesterday.

He is believed to be connected to a senior figure who took part in an al-Qaeda terror summit in Pakistan 16 months ago where a list of future targets was reportedly finalised.

Forensic scientists said last night that the explosives used by the London bombers was the same type used by the convicted British shoe-bombers Richard Reid and Saajid Badat. Scientists hope to establish today whether it originated from the same batch.

It was made from ingredients known to be taught to al-Qaeda recruits in Afghanistan training camps and elsewhere, confirming suspicions that the London bombings were the work of al-Qaeda.

[Griff]

I thought I'd google the bro'hood to see what the skinny was on the outfit. It appears they had the goal of cranking up the wahabbi on all the Arab governments and own Saudi Arabia. According to this article they got a hold of bin Laden when it hurt to pee so he decided everyone else should be protected from such a life-style. Anybody else see a pattern among religous nuts who can't do personal responsibility? It seems the bro'hood spawns these outfits (al queda etc...) but are trying to be legit governmentals (oxymoronic eh?). Anyway, I'm on the outside of three fingers of the cheapest scotch known to man so I'll let others contribute.

[tw]

Originally Posted by wolf

Having read the Koran in it's entirety, I'm interested in this statement ... in what way is The Koran misrepresented? What is the flavor that it's supposed to have?

I keep asking for specific examples of how the English version did not agree with the Arabic version. Instead I always get answers that are general; a specific example not cited. The Koran is on my reading list. And until I read it, I was not going to press them on specifics. Meanwhile, which English version of the Koran did you read?

Where'd you get the 1990 date?

1 Aug 1990 : the day that Saddam invaded Kuwait. Previously, many right wing Americans such as Kilpatrick, Buchanan, Wolfovich, Quayle, etc were still insisting that the Cold War had not ended. A resulting new world order meant the US paid practically nothing to liberate Kuwait; Japan being the country that paid most for that war. Most every nation paid something to liberate Kuwait. How's that for just another example of how the world changed. A war authorized and legal without a national declaration of war. Even the American extreme right wing conceded that the Cold War was over due to what happened on 1 Aug 1990. It is one of the rare times in history where virtually the entire world came to the same conclusion. 1 Aug 1990 was a rare example of when the entire world was working for the benefit of the world's people. 1 Aug 1990 was a day the world changed.

Another noteworthy day (and I don't have the date) was when Hitler was elected by the German people.

[russotto]

And so, with the multi-national ejection of a secular dictator from a country ruled by an (Islamic) monarchy, all the Islamic fundamentalists who were formerly best buddies with the United States and the West in general were suddenly our sworn enemies. (and of course it's all George Bush's fault)

Damn, tw-world is sure a strange place. If the sky is blue there, it's a blue which has no relation to what the rest of us would call "blue".

[wolf]

Originally Posted by tw

Another noteworthy day (and I don't have the date) was when Hitler was elected by the German people.

There was no such date. Hitler was never elected by the German People, per se. Hindenberg appointed Hitler to the post of Chancellor on January 30, 1933. A general election would have taken place in March 1933, if the Reichstag hadn't conveniently burned down, and the Law for the Protection of the People and State was put into place.

On March 23, 1933 a meeting of the Reichstag was held in a temporary location (an opera house) and attendance was controlled by two factors ... communist and socialist factions had already been outlawed, and the SA made sure that members of parties likely to dissent wouldn't get it. That's where Hitler got handed dictatorial power through the Enabling Bill.

[xoxoxoBruce]

TW, you keep refering to the "Muslim Brotherhood". Obviously that's not what they call it but the English translation. In that Muslim countries speak many different languages, is there one name that they call themselves?

[wolf]

Originally Posted by tw

I keep asking for specific examples of how the English version did not agree with the Arabic version. Instead I always get answers that are general; a specific example not cited. The Koran is on my reading list. And until I read it, I was not going to press them on specifics. Meanwhile, which English version of the Koran did you read?

The N.J. Dawood translation, published by Penguin.

Every time I try to have a conversation on this topic with the Pakistani doctor at work, there are too darn many patients to be seen and he doesn't have time to talk when I do. If I ever do get to talk to him, I'll let you know what his impressions are.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

TW, you keep refering to the "Muslim Brotherhood". Obviously that's not what they call it but the English translation. In that Muslim countries speak many different languages, is there one name that they call themselves?

I was just talking to an Egyptian friend today. His concepts of Muslim Brotherhood are those who murdered Sadat. He also noted that Hosni Mubarak curiously was sitting right next to Sadat and yet was not killed. I would have to look again to be sure.

But the point is that the Muslim Brotherhood is really a vague, loosely defined, and not well understood concept. This is not how a US President can promote an enemy. Propaganda is to create an enemy that the public can better understand - Al Qaeda. Then blame everything on Al Qaeda. Do they really think bin Laden is still planning and executing against the US? Of course not. There is no central command. There is this murky concept called Muslim Brotherhood.

Our actions in Iraq and our intentions upon Iran would only serve to make the Muslim Brotherhood stronger and more dangerous even to our friends in that region.

Hamas is also listed as an example of the Muslim Brotherhood. And yet Hamas will not to attack Americans. Just makes the Muslim Brotherhood that much more murky. And yet to understand the region, one must first understand this strange concept so often called the Muslim Brotherhood.

To declare all terrorism or insurgency as Al Qaeda is to also call the Viet Minh a world wide communist conspiracy. America also made that mistake with the simple-minded reasoning of Lyndon Johnson and Gen LeMay. One would think Americans learned from their history and mistakes. And yet here we are again making the same mistake. Before one can defeat an enemy, one must first correctly define the enemy. Instead we let the propagandists blame everything on Al Qaeda.

How does one define a strategic objective WHEN the enemy is not even accurately defined? No strategic objective is why America has no exit strategy for Iraq. That was a lesson of Vietnam. How many learned that lesson - or instead believed White House propaganda that also blamed Saddam for the 11 Sept attacks?

[tw]

Originally Posted by wolf

There was no such date. Hitler was never elected by the German People, per se. Hindenberg appointed Hitler to the post of Chancellor on January 30, 1933. A general election would have taken place in March 1933, if the Reichstag hadn't conveniently burned down, and the Law for the Protection of the People and State was put into place.

I stand accurately corrected.